Toronto streets, about 1840

[JaneyCanuck]

Are you acquainted with the person who has in their tree at GenesReunited

Ellen Lockhart born 1816 Troy NY

?

That person doesn't seem to have James Clezie or Crezie in their tree.

Someone else does have three George Clezies: ... Oh, you know that person. 


In post 17, page 2, you list children of Ellen Lockhart and James Clezie (and I add my notes here):

Margaret Jane (James Clezie’s mother was alternately called Jane / Jean)
>> The known mother of Mary Lockhart Dow and John Lockhart in the 1850 US census in Rensselaer county, and probably of Margaret Lockhart who married Samuel Thomson in 1852, was Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde.

Mary (origin unknown)
>> William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde had a daughter Mary

William James (source of William is unknown; James from the father)
>> The apparent father of Mary Lockhart Dow and John Lockhart in the 1850 US census in Rensselaer county, and probably of Margaret Lockhart who married Samuel Thomson in 1852 and Jane Lockhart who married Robert Leach in 1853, was William Lockhart.


It isn't conclusive of anything, but it is very consistent with the Rensselaer Cty Lockharts.

[heiserca]

Let's give this one a rest.   After 9 pages of chasing chimeras... running off in all directions... not a single new fact has been learned about Ellen's origin.   Summer is here - get outside and enjoy it!  Thanks all for your help.

[JaneyCanuck]

Yes, Sir.

Or we could all just do as we like and refrain from issuing instructions to others ... and consider that where some of us are, the weather at the moment is not at all enjoyable, being about to turn from intolerable heat wave to monsoon in the next hour, and that someone still recovering from a broken limb may look for entertainment at the keyboard rather than on the hot city streets ...

Apologies for not coming up with the desired answers. And for spending time trying to find ways of finding them, and in fact accomplishing quite a bit, actually.

Because, personally, I think that the possibility that your Ellen Lockhart was a child of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson subsequently Cloyd/e, and the sister of Mary Lockhart Dow, Jane Lockhart Leach, Margaret Lockhart Thompson, John Lockhart and possibly Robert Lockhart, all of these people having lived in Rensselaer Cty NY at the relevant times, is the absolute best and strongest and most sensible possibility that has been produced to date.

And since you had previously been told there were no Lockharts in Troy before the Civil War (the 1860s), well, that's some new facts there, I'd say. A whole ball of new facts.

Given that Robert Lockhart 1834 was born in Canada, it is in fact possible that he was the son of Margaret Henderson Lockhart who was then widowed and met and married John Cloyde here, and the family emigrated to NY state ... or that she had lived in Canada with William Lockhart and emigrated to NY state where he died, and married John Cloyde there -- and so James Clezie travelled to Troy to marry Ellen (whether she had stayed in Canada when her mother emigrated, say, or not) -- not to elope from his family, but because that was where her family lived.

In 1850 there is a strange nest of young Cloyd women in Troy Ward 7 -- a few pages away in the same book as where Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde is found living with her second husband and her daughter Mary Lockhart Dow: Amy, Sarah, Charlotte, Ellen, Jane and Rebecca Cloyd, aged from 32 to 16 in that order, with not an occupation among them, the youngest two born in NY and the others in England ... before registration, of course. In addition, in 1870, a Richard Cloyde in Syracuse NY born c1822 in NY (in 1860 his birth place is England, in 1850 it is NY, and he is in the 1840 in Troy Ward 3), is an upholsterer, as John Clloyde and Robert Lockhart were in 1850.

No way to tell from that whether any of those children are Margaret's, or they are all John's from before he married Margaret, or they aren't related at all, although plainly Richard is his, and the girls almost certainly would be. But one might guess they are all John's alone (which seems to put him in NY state and not Canada), since we do have Robert Lockhart born c1834 in Canada in the 1850 Cloyde household, i.e. he is the same age as the youngest Cloyd girl.

The likelihood that this Lockhart family in Rensselaer Cty NY is not your Ellen's ... well, it may not have been, but, well, hm.


And hm. Interesting that some of this info was public knowledge some time ago ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,595985.html


One more little edit: have finally found evidence of the John Cloyde family in England.

Baptism of sons:
Richard, 1818, Chichester, England
John, 1816, Chichester, England
- parents John Cloyde and Abigail; no further trace of Abigail.

John (wife Roda/Rhoda) and Richard (wive Elvira/Eliza) are both in US censuses.


Maybe this info will be of interest to someone who searches the forums some day. 

[royd]

So, my eyes do not deceive me!       


None other than Janey Canuck - researcher extraordinaire no less....


Heiserca - you are so fortunate to have caught Janey's eye with your query.  She may not have posted much on this site but......she is extremely well known in other genealogical quarters for her amazing abilities.  Convoluted her replies may be, but she is rarely wrong and, she has been known to 'outwit' professional genealogists.   In fact, other competent researchers are known to turn to her when they hit a brickwall - they know that if Janey can't sort out the problem then it's doubtful anyone else can. 


It may take time to follow her way of thinking, but perseverence and co-operation will be well worth it.   



R. 

[cosmac]

I took the time this past weekend to follow the CLOYDE/HENDERSON/LOCKHART/DOW lines outlined by JaneyCanuck.

The theory that a widowed Margaret Lockhart (nee Henderson) married John Cloyde does seem to track with the inclusion of Mary Dow in the household in 1850 and the subsequent evidence of the Dow family in Chicago as well as Margaret Cloyde. 

With the marriage of Ellen in Troy I think you might try and find some evidence in newspapers Heiserca for deaths or marriages of some of these people as it might give you some more clues.  The county website for Renssaelaer County also indicated that burial records for Troy are available from the LDS church and this is another important avenue for you to follow.

Heiserca you give me the impression that you just want a history for Ellen and are impatient because it can't be eaily supplied.  Because she died and married without any parental information you can only hope that if you relook at the marriage document you will find, as suggested, a witness name that will be a family member.

If your choice is to stop looking for Ellen's past now and decide to revive your search at a later date please remember to add to this existing thread instead of opening a new one. 

 As I collected information  I started ticking off what was redundant but soon forgot to so some of the following might be duplicate of what was previously posted.  Aplogies for that.

1860 census Chicago George Dow with wife Mary and children Margaret 13 b. NFLD, Mary J. 7 b. Penn, Marion 5 b. N.Y., William 2 b. Illinois
1870 census I can't find Mary and children but George Dow is living with Margaret Cloyd
1880 census Chicago George Dow with wife Mary

Aug 02, 1850 on the ship Emily from Newfoundland to New York George Down (his occupation is always slater or roofer) 34, wife Mary 30, Margaret 3 and George 18 mos.

George Dow d. 17 Mar 1899 Chicago.  b. 1816 Scot.  buried Forest Home
Mary Lockhart Dow b. 1818 Scot, d. 4 Jan 1899 Chicago.  buried Mt. Olive

Marion J. Dodd b. 27 Aug 1857 N.Y., d/o George Dow (Scot.) and Mary Lokhardt (Scot.) d. 31 Jan 1911 Chicago. buried Forest Home

Samuel Thompson Fielding b. 01 April 1880 Chicago, s/o Margaret henderson Fielding b. Troy N.Y. and Henry Fielding b. Leeds Eng.
1880 Chicago census  Henry Fielding, wife Margaret H., and children Lavinia, Nettie, William, Helen, Samuel.

Nettie Ann Fielding b. Chicago, d/o Henry Fielding and Margaret Lockhart married Samuel Angul Martin b. P.E.I., s/o Samuel martin and Sarah Campbell 28 Nov 1901 Paynette Columbia Wisconisn

Lavinia M. Criswell, b. Dec 11, 1871 Chicago, d/o Margareth Lockehart b. N.Y. and Henry Fielding b. Eng. d. Dec 19, 1927 Chicago, wife of Frank Criswell.  Buried Oakwood

Helen E. Fielding b. 1879 Chicago, d/o Henry William Fielding and Margaret Lockhaert married Alfred J. Trythall, s/o James Trythall and Ida Maddox May 3, 1905 Hillsdale, Michigan.

Henry Fielding d. 06 Dec 1888 Chicago.  B. 1848 England, occupation printer.  Buried Rose Hill.  An online family tree shows he married Feb 17, 1871 Chicago.  The tree does not have any information on the parents of Henry or Margaret.

Debbie

[JaneyCanuck]

Oh royd. Where's the blushing idiotface?? People who know me know I cut my teeth on that gr-grfather of mine, whom no amount of "traditional" genealogical investigation would ever, ever have found or identified. It was the magic of search engines and the coincidence piled upon coincidence that they threw up, whether serendipitously or through hard slogging, that did it. I am pretty sure that my on-line mentor in England (like some here, no doubt) simply thought I was insane, as I related my theories to him over some months. Then one day he went to a local records office in a parish in another county, for his own research, and found the few lines on paper from 150 years before that clinched my wild theory: my gr-grfather's baptism, with the occurrence of the known (now obviously fake) surname and the hypothesized (never heard of) surname together in his sister's name. His message to me was: I don't believe it; you did it all wrong, but you got the right answer.

It's the multidimensionality of situations like this that makes them hard to put on paper ... or pixels. It's really like building a four-dimensional pyramid as one goes along. Person X has something that matches with Person Y, but only if we know "ABC" about Person Z ... I put a nutshell version in one of the other threads that lays it out more clearly, but it still has to be seen as a web of evidence, rather than a straight line leading to "the answer" ... because sometimes there isn't one:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,595931.msg4583275.html#msg4583275

To which the details cosmic has very kindly followed down and posted now, about some of the lines down from William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson, add a lot more flesh. And on the question of published BMD info, I have to say that, being the obsessive I am, I did find and search through all of the newspaper archival databases for Troy marriages and deaths referred to in one of the other threads:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nytigs/TroyNewspaperProject/TroyNewspaperProject.htm
and found only what was already known here, e.g. the Margaret Lockhart marriage, and one Cloyd daughter marriage I had already found. (Given the absence of any English baptisms at FS for those six girls, it's possible, although it seems unlikely, that they're unrelated.)

And what's missing is what has always been missing: any link between the now reconstructed and reunited Lockhart family in Rensselaer Cty, with all its apparent members and their histories, and our Ellen Lockhart. If there were only one bit of paper -- a witness name on a marriage certificate, an informant name on a death -- that put her in that picture, we could call the job done.

At least this kind of compilation of a spectrum of possible family members, and in particular the numerous other surnames associated with them all, means that if such a link is ever found, it will be apparent that it is a link, and not just a random name that tells one nothing.

And look at all the names to search family trees for now. 

[royd]

As I said.....convoluted!   


However,  follow that convoluted path Heiserca, and you may just find that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!   


R.

[JaneyCanuck]

cosmac -- one more question!

John Cloyd household in Troy Ward 4, Rensselaer, NY, in 1840
Richard Cloyd household in Troy Ward 3, Rensselaer, NY, in 1840

I understand there will be only a head count, but it is broken down by sex, and also by age.

If it should be the case that some or all those Cloyd girls were living with John, we'd have no hope of determining whether there were Lockharts too.   But it could be interesting to see the composition of the household.

For instance, if Robert Lockhart c1834 were there, he would be the only male person in his age group, I think. The absence of any male person aged 5 to 9 would mean the household was still pure Cloyd and not yet blended with Lockharts.

By process of elimination using the free search at Anc'y, which allows searches for only under 20 years vs. 20-49 years, I find:

- the Richard Cloyd household had 3 persons under 20 and 1 person 20-49 (4 free white persons total)
- the John Cloyd household had 8 persons under 20 and 1 person 20-49 (10 free white persons total, so one was over 49).

The 8 would likely include the 6 Cloyd daughters seen in 1850 and probably son John (who would have been about 16). So it seems doubtful there were any Lockharts there. Unless maybe some of the Cloyd girls were living with Richard ...

If there is a finer breakdown for that year, it would be more grist for the mill, anyhow!

I do also wonder about T L Lockland in Troy in 1840, as shown at Anc'y, and whether that might possibly be a mistranscribed Lockhart. One never knows!

I considered one other in 1840: a William Lockhart household in 1840 in Verona, Oneida County, NY. A total of 5 free white persons -- one is aged 20-49, three are under 20 ... so one must be over 49. That would fit with one spouse born 1790 or earlier, one spouse born after 1790, and three children. Verona is on the route from the Niagara border crossings to Troy, just east of Syracuse, about 100 miles west of Troy. (Syracuse is where John Cloyd's son Richard lived later.) However, there is a Wm Lockhart household in Rochester in 1850 that probably accounts for that 1840 household (he was born c1780 Ireland, his wife c1790 Ireland, and there is one daughter c1824 NY). So I think that puts paid to them. Just more ruling out!

[JaneyCanuck]

Hey, you folks who know more about US resources than I do -- is there any chance of finding a death/burial for Robert Lockhart born Nov 1834 in "Canada (Eng)" (both parents born in Scotland), per the 1901 census when he is Robert H (Henderson?) Lockhart, a sexton living in
ED 18 1st Precinct New Orleans city Ward 3, Orleans, Louisiana, United States
?

Of course, unless a family member was still in contact with him and provided info for the death registration, it isn't likely to tell us anything about family.

Unfortunately, again per that census, he was still an alien, so there would be no naturalization record. And he never married.

The interesting thing about that 1901 census is that it says he has been in the US 63 years / since 1836. That provides a date for when the Lockhart family settled in NY state, assuming again that he is a son of Margaret Henderson Lockhart (Cloyd) and William Lockhart.

If he was a sexton, presumably Presbyterian like the entire family in Troy (and the Clezies), possibly some kind of church record?