Where in Russia ?

[JustinL]

Hello Maureen,

I had written most of a reply to you when the power tripped out in the house!!

I had managed to find the census records; admittedly I was a bit thrown by the different names for Abraham's wife. Are you certain that Annie didn't die in the 1890s, and Abraham remarried a Rachel?

The 1911 including the married daughters under their maiden names is a bit of an oddity.

Do you have Leah's marriage certificate? Did she marry in accordance with Jewish customs and rites? If so, there may be a so-called marriage authorisation, which sould state her place of birth.

Cheers, Justin

[momat]

Hi Justin,
I do have a Ketubah for Leah Jacobs and Israel BROHM Hull 1904
I have previously tried to scan it to my PC but it only comes up a blur.
There is nothing on the English page that states where she was born .
The other page is in Hebrew.
We became BROWN some where around 1920

The Annie bit throws me and as far as I know there was no other mystery marriage apart from the Lottie one ,but I have just noticed there is a death in Hull for an Annie Jacobs 1895 and Abraham's next child was born in 1896 I am now wondering if you are on the right track.
Will have to try for the Birth certificate of Sophia Jacobs and the Annie Jacobs death Cert then to disprove this one way or the other.

Cheers, Maureen.

[momat]

Just had another look at my data and decided that all three daughters have the same mother as they are all on the same census 1891.
and the birth of the last child Harry in 1893 throws it all out so my previous post would not work in date wise.
I have evidently mistranscribed something on my tree.

[JustinL]

Hello Maureen,

The ketubah is the marriage contract or certificate, and is mostly in Aramaic actually. However, before couples could be officially married by a Rabbi, a marriage authorisation had to be granted by the Chief Rabbi. It is this authorisation that will state the place of birth.

Do you have Leah and Israel's civil certificate, that will tells us exactly where they married?

Interestingly, a database of the Jewish cemetery in Delphi Street includes the burials of an Annie Jacobs and an Annie Rachel Jacobs in the same grave. Unfortunately, there are no further details, except for a mention that the latter death was not officially registered?

Cheers, Justin

[momat]

Hello Justin,

Israel & Leah were married in the Osborne Synagogue Hull December 28th 1904.
Both fathers are recorded on this.
Pity that they never recorded the mothers names on these as I don't even know who Israel's mother was.
So I need to find the authorisation then.

All my early searches for a death for Annie/Rachel came up with an entry on Jewgen that states NO BMD entry!!
Several years ago I wrote to the Yorkshire archives to see if they could locate her death and they found nothing. I have searched Scotland for her too.

Just went back to my paper trail and on Leah's death cert in Scotland it states her mother as Annie Rae nee Diamond.Rae being a derivative of Rachel!!
This information was given by Leah's eldest son who would have had the correct data.

On Abrahams Scottish death cert it states first wife as Rachel -------
I will be in UK soon and hope to search the Cemetery in Hull for  any clues .

One BIG headache 
Cheers,
Maureen.

[bramhallbill]

I thought you posted "Where is Russia?"
Time to get new glasses.
Exellent work!
Bill B

[JustinL]

Maureen,

Where are you writing from?

The Jewishgen databases are unaccessible at the moment fro some odd reason. The Jewish Online Worldwide Burial Register records burial dates and ages at death for Annie Jacob and Annie Rachel Jacob. Both were too old to be your Annie.

I have written many posts on the subject of marriage authorisations as issued by the Chief Rabbi. To this post

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,428679.msg3340668.html#msg3340668

I attached an explanation and the contact address (on the last page). I believe the fee has now risen to a shocking £20.

You'll also see from my other posts that the MA does not always record the places of birth of the couple. It could, however, provide the breakthrough.

A difficult decision.

Justin

PS How do you know the surnames and hometowns of your Litvak branches?

[momat]

Hello Justin,
Sorry I have not replied sooner.
I am in New Zealand.

I only know that Abraham ,Annie/Rachel and Leah were Russian and Polish from the census returns.
They are my mystery.No other clues.

I know that my grandfather Israel was from PIKELIAI from a recently sourced document lodged in the Glasgow Jewish History Centre .I always thought he was from RIGA!
This was a statement made by his eldest daughter from a document that she had.I have not seen this.I am hoping it is in the possession of her son who I will ask when I get to Glasgow. He is not into Computers or Genealogy .
There is nothing to state who Israel's parents  were other than his fathers name as Solomon Brohm on his Marriage and Death certs.
Neither is there anything on his brothers death cert in Glasgow 1962 just a blank space!
I am glad that he did not change to Brown until they arrived in Glasgow as I have  so many variations on BROHM.
There is even some thoughts in the family that his name was originally SCHWARTS.
All possible as Brown in Russian and German.
It's a wonder that I know who I am

Cheers,
Maureen.

[mdiamond]

Justin and Maureen,
Sorry to butt in and revive what looks like a conversation you all had more than a year ago, but.... I may have just hit paydirt!  This may not be Maureen's ancestors but they are definitely mine.  Amazing me stumbling upon you chatting about my great-grandfather Kalmen Diamond!  I've been looking for this information for going on 10 years now.  When my grandfather Aaron Diamond married my Catholic grandmother in Louisiana, his Orthodox Jewish family in London declared him dead and cut off all contact.  Aaron never talked about his family, and we had almost nothing to to go on.  I've been putting the pieces together and then WHAM, I found this document and it all fell together.   All, except the name of the town in Russia where they came from.  We knew they were from the Warsaw area, just didn't know where.  But now, Justin, I'm wondering if I can enlist the help you were about to offer Maureen in deciphering how to search for records of Kalmen Diamond and family in Skierniewice?  I would greatly appreciate any pointers to information.  Thanks in advance!!
Mark Diamond