Where in Russia ?

[JustinL]

Hello Mark,

Welcome to RootsChat!

I'm afraid this is a rather brief response that we leave you with many questions.

The database I was trying to access for Maureen is the one generated under the Jewish Records Indexing - Poland project hosted on by JewishGen.org

The database is far from complete but includes the following records from Skierniewice:

Kalman Diament married Szejwa (Shey-va) Pulman in 1887.

Births of:

Pincus Szama (Shama) Diamant registered in 1888
Chinda Diament registered in 1890
Josek (Yiddish version of Joseph) Diament and Abram Diament registered in 1896

Later birth records (including Aaron's) are held in the Polish archives and the local registry office.

I'll give you more guidance in the next few days.

All the best, Justin

[mdiamond]

Justin, all I can say is Blimey and THANK YOU!!!!   There is now NO doubt that this is in fact my long lost family.  I say that for this reason:  I've been pouring through a letter written by a elderly relative 10 years ago who names many names she was trying to recall from the distant past.  I've found a few of these successfully on Free BMD, but she mentioned that somewhere in our ancestry there was a Shana Pullman but she didn't know who this could be.  I could NEVER find anything on this.  Then you mentioned Szejwa (Shey-va) Pulman !!!!  WOW!  REALLY BIG WOW!  We've always heard that Kalmen's wife was named Sarah, but didn't know a maiden name.  Not too hard to figure now, that Szejwa IS Sarah!!  This is just so incredible I can't believe it!  My dad is now 87, has cancer, and I"m racing now to fill the details that even he doesn't know about his father Aaron's origins.  He didn't still had his doubts when I showed him the Census record last night, as there are some conflicts with what he had been told and has believed all his life.  One key conflict/question that I would LOVE to find out is if Rose and Jacob were born in Skierniewice, or in London.  My Dad was always told that Aaron was the last to be born in Russia/Poland and the family moved when Aaron was just a few months old.  But I've never been able to find a British birth certificate on Rose and Jacob.  And Kalmen's census record says they were all born in Russia.  Would be great to find this out!   Can you continue to assist me, and if so, how can I repay you? !!  Thanks again Justin!

[avm228]

Hi Mark

You probably already have this, but when Aaron Diamond stowed away on the Lancastrian to New York in 1917 (and was presumably discovered, given that he was added to the passenger list, albeit marked as a stowaway) his birthplace was given as Warsaw, Poland. Next of kin in England was father Colman Diamond of 194 St George St, London.  Aaron was said to be travelling to join his brother Aby Diamond, Boss, Woodbine, N.J.

The brother's details look like a good match for the WW1 Draft Registration Card (dated 6/4/17) of Abey Diamond born March 9, 1895 "Warsaw, Poland, Russia". Home address in 1917 was 2032 N. Franklin, Phila, Pa.  He was single, and employed in a clothing factory by the Woodbine Clothing Co of Woodbine, N.J.

[momat]

Hello Justin and Mark,

Pleased that my query helped Mark .
Sadly nothing for me as I am still in the dark!!
Just goes to show that it pays to keep searching as who knows what may come up.
My search in the Hull Cemetries last year gave me no more clues and I still think that the unregistered death is my Greatgrandmother.
I did bring back 3 booklets  (thanks to a second cousin) on the Monumental Inscriptions regarding the Jewish Cemetries in Hull.
DELHI  Street, MARFLEET Road and ELLA / HESSLE Street.
If anyone needs data from there I can check it .

Maureen.

[mdiamond]

To AVM228,
Blimey AGAIN!!  Yes, we knew all that you mentioned in your first paragraph because of the Ellis Island record on Aaron.  The stowaway story is well know in my family, although we don't really know why.  He was given the option to join the U.S. Cavalry for two years or be deported.  Needless to say, he chose the Cavalry after which he applied for and got U.S. Citizenship.  What was lost on us was Aby Diamond, as no one in the family knew who this was.  We were aware, however that he joined his brother in the U.S., but his brother had changed his name to Sam Gold.  No one knew his real name and this really complicated the search.  Sam's birthdate that he listed on his passport application in 1922 was March 10, 1895, which of course now jives nearly perfectly with what you found on "Abey" Diamond's WW1 Draft card.  The two brothers made their living as tailors in the U.S., and lived in Philidelphia which also lines up with his draft card reporting.  The details are filling in REALLY QUICKLY, thanks to you and Justin, so I can't thank you enough!!  This has been decades in the making, and the gating item was the release of the 1911 England Census.  So referring to that Census, there is an Abraham, age 16, and a Joseph, age 18 listed.  I'm presuming Abey would be Abraham in this case?  Do you know Abey to be a nickname for Abraham?  Strange because on the census, Abraham is listed as a bootmaker while Joseph is listed as a tailor.  I suppose after age 16, Abraham could have decided to be a tailor instead.  Again, would Abey most likely be Abraham? 

Thanks again!!

[JustinL]

Hi Mark,

I'm alwasy happy to help others with their Jewish genealogy, especially those that, like me, descend from a mixed marriage.

Aby or Abe would be common pet forms for Abraham in the US.

Are you able to open this webpage http://jri-poland.org/town/skierniewice.htm ?

It takes you to the JRI-Poland page for Skierniewice, and indicates what records are available and in which archives.

I suggest your best bet at this stage, to get things moving quickly, is to drop a line to the Skierniewice Town Leader, Joe Ross (joeross1220 [at] gmail [dot] com]. He will be ale to tell you how to go about obtaining records from Polish archives. More importantly, he may have acess to some records that have not been made available online yet.

If Aron's parents really did emigrate when he was only a few months old, it is entirely possible that his birth was never registered in Russia. Although I have just found a birth registration for Aron Josif Dymand in Lodz (close to Skierniewice) in 1901.

It's hard to say definitively, whether Rose and Jacob were born in Russia or England. The information on 1911 census was probably provided by word of mouth and Klaman may have been unable to read English at that stage. So, it is possible that someone assumed that the whole family had been born in Russia. Have you checked for spelling variations on Diamond? Unfortunately, it was a pretty common surname in London's East End at the turn of the century.

More later.

Take care, Justin

[mdiamond]

Thanks for the response Justin!  I can access the Skierniewice website and so I'll get to work on this as well as dash off a note to Joe Ross.  Thanks greatly for this pointers.
 
Insofar as the birth locations of Rose and Jacob, the 1911 Census is signed by Kalmen Diamond and that handwriting appears to be the same as the other filled out information.  I think I read somewhere that this was as intended, the census information was filled out by the families themselves and not the census takers.  What do you think?  And what's the likelyhood, if Kalmen was not able to read or write English, that someone would have actually signed the census form for him?

Also, what are your guesses/thoughts about what Rose's true given Jewish name would have been (I'm assuming not Rose)?

Lastly, in a previous post, you mentioned "registered" as opposed to "birth (i.e.,Pincus Diamant registered in 1888).  Can I assume registered means birth?  If so, I'm wondering why brothers Josek and Abram were registered in the same year, 1896, considering the census shows them 2 years apart? Were births not "registered" immediately as they happened?

Thanks!
Mark

[JustinL]

Hi Mark,

I've done a bit more digging and found some interesting morsels.

Colman Diamond was buried in the Enfield Jewish Cemetery, Carterhatch Lane, Enfield (north London) on 28th August 1940 (plot no. C-6-20)

Sarah Diamond was buried next to him in plot no. C-6-21 on 22nd January 1956.

Their gravestones may well bear Hebrew inscriptions which would reveal their fathers' forenames.

Shayeh Pulman (groom) married Khayeh Diament (bride) in Skierniewice in 1889.

The 1911 census return states 'Kalman Diamond his mark'. This indicates that he was not able to write in English, and someone else defienitely filled out the form for him. This would have been very common for immigrant families.

Rose would have been Rosa/Roza most likely; a very common Yiddish name. Furthermore, Jacob would have been known as Yankel.

Births in the Jewish communities of Russia were often registered quite some time (even years) after the actual event.

By the way, Szejwa (pronounced Sheyva) is a shortened form of Bas-Sheyva.

Justin

[avm228]

Insofar as the birth locations of Rose and Jacob, the 1911 Census is signed by Kalmen Diamond and that handwriting appears to be the same as the other filled out information.  I think I read somewhere that this was as intended, the census information was filled out by the families themselves and not the census takers.  What do you think?  And what's the likelyhood, if Kalmen was not able to read or write English, that someone would have actually signed the census form for him?

You're right as to the principle that the household schedule was to be completed by the householder and then collected by the enumerator.  This was the case for all English censuses, though 1911 is the first for which the householders' schedules survive - in older censuses we see only the summary sheets produced afterwards by the enumerator.

However, some householders were not able to complete the schedules themselves (illiteracy, or lack of English, being obvious possible reasons).  Have a look to see whether Kalmen's name has the words "his mark" following it. In such a case he would have made his mark (instead of a signature) with an X, and the writing (including his name in longhand) would have been completed by someone else.  This could be another household member, a literate neighbour, or possibly the enumerator.   

(Sorry -  just realised I've duplicated that thought process with Justin!).