Birth Info - James Perrin

[Ladyhawk]

Hi Elliefantasy,

Sorry to see that you have not been able to find anything further back on your James Perrin
have added the link from your previous post as not to duplicate any info.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,515296.msg3716695.html

Obviously you haven't found James' marriage to Harriet either

I have just found this it may just be a co-incidence but I'm posting info. to see what you
and everyone else thinks especially as we are having trouble finding James Perrin before 1881c

Completely the wrong surname marriage & earlier censuses for James BUT christian names, date & pob same 

Jun 1870 Thame
Harriet BEESLEY
Names on same page
James Toovey RENDALL

1871 RG10; Piece: 1428; Folio: 53; Page: 34
Britwell Rd., Watlington Oxfordshire
James T Randall 23 (1848) Hambledon Buckingham Ag Labourer
Harriet Randall 23 (1848) Stoke Talmage


1861 RG 9; Piece: 1007; Folio: 29; Page: 10
Frederick Randle (Randall) 46 Stewkley Bucks Straw Dealer
Hannah 41 Wing
George 16
JAMES 13 Buckingham
William 11
Henry 8
Ann 2
John 3 months

James not on census with Frederick & Hannah could he be transcribed as dau Jane

1851 HO107; Piece: 1756; Folio: 325; Page: 26
Frederic Randall 32 Wing Straw Dealer
Hannah 32 Skewley
Sarah R 8
George 6
Jane 4
William 2

Could this be him pob Henley

1851 HO107; Piece: 1725; Folio: 218; Page: 6 – Henley Workhouse
James T RANDALL 1848 Henley Pauper 

Sorry couldn’t find a James Toovey Randell b1848 Hambledon on 1861 census but there's this entry 

1861 RG 9; Piece: 32; Folio: 20; Page: 48
Francis Whyte 28 Dublin Ireland
Jane Whyte 30 Hambledon
James Toovey  son-in-law 10 (1851) Hambledon

This looks as if it could be Harriet with her parents

1851 HO107; Piece: 1726; Folio: 90; Page: 3
James Beisley 33 Farm Lab.
Mary 35 Watlington Oxon
Sarah Ann 14
Theodosia 13
Charlot 10
John 8
HARRIET  6 Stoke Talmage
James 3
Jane 1

[Ladyhawk]

Hi again Elliefantasy - what were your thoughts on the 1870 marriage entry and the 1871 census

Public Tree on Ancestry has James Randle b1848 father Frederick mother Hannah marrying Sarah Ann Brand 16 May 1868 All Saints Wing (details from Buckingham Parish Records) they also say possible error on 1851 census James shown as Jane dau

So possibly the James T Randell Pauper on 1851 census could the James Toovey Randell that marries 1870  Haven't found a birth entry for James Toovey Rendall/Randall yet or James on the 1861 census 

The only way to find out if there's a father’s name is to check the marriage certificate

Have amended my other post with census info for James with parents Frederick & Hannah

If this is your James Perrin b1848 Hambledon in 1851c, 1870 & 1871c why the change of surname after 1871c 

Will have a look again later to see if I can trace this James Toovey Rendall/Randall on any other censuses after 1871

mmm…. this looks to be the death entry for James & Harriet’s son Aubrey
I wonder what the initial ‘R’ stands for could it possibly be Randall?

Aubery J R Perrin b1872 died age 80
Jun 1952 Chichester Sussex vol 5H page 443

[Ladyhawk]

mmm…. this looks to be the death entry for James & Harriet’s son Aubrey

I wonder what the initial ‘R’ stands for could it possibly be Randall ?

Aubery J R Perrin b1872 died age 80
Jun 1952 Chichester Sussex vol 5H page 443

Hooray I think I have got the answer their surname was RANDAL 

As to why the name change that I can't answer James & Harriet’s dau Margaret Ellen birth entry Henley 1874 has surname Perrin that possibly narrows the name change between 1872 - 1874 (Aubery John Randal b1871 Henley -  Margaret Ellen Perrin b1874 Henley)

Death Certificate dated 12/4/1952 address 104 Parklands Road Chichester
Aubery John Randal Perrin age 80 retired postman
cause of death Broncho Pneumonia & Myocardial degeneration
informant son L F Perrin

Aubery John Randal
Birth  abt 1871 Age at enlistment: 44
Document Year: 1915
Reg. No. 8536 Reg Name: Royal Flying Corps
Number of images: 3
Address 137 St Pancras Chichester occ Postman
Served before Yes - 3105 Rgt Royal Sussex date of Discharge 27/1/10
Next of Kin wife Alice Eliza Jane PERRIN alias RANDAL
Married 12/12/98 Chichester Alice Eliza Jane mn Ticehurst
children named as
Joyce Adelaide 9/5/04 Banikher (India)
Florence Rose 20/5/06 Chichester
Irene Ethel 22/7/13
Harold Charles 22/7/13
Leslie Frank 8/12/14

This must be his birth registration

Aubery John Randal
Sep 1871 Henley Buckinghamshire, Berkshire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a Page 582

and the marriage details I posted must be for his parents - here it is again with vol/page numbers

Jun 1870 Thame vol 3a page 796
Harriet BEESLEY
Names on same page
James Toovey RENDALL

so this must be them on 1871 census 

1871 RG10; Piece: 1428; Folio: 53; Page: 34
Britwell Rd., Watlington Oxfordshire
James T Randall 23 (1848) Hambledon Buckingham Ag Labourer
Harriet Randall 23 (1848) Stoke Talmage

James marriage certificate hopefully will give you his father or perhaps mother's name and hopefully you can find the correct James on earlier censuses

I haven't found James Toovey Randell's birth entry but who knows what name was used  There are these James Randall 1846 Berkhamstead,1846 Bicester, James Randall 1844 Henley &
James Randall 1852 Wycombe

At least you know have James' marriage & his son Aubrey's birth entries - if you do purchase them please come back and let us know what they say 

[Milliepede]

Wow I am so impressed you found all that *round of applause*

Maybe he was a double barrelled surname (or triple!) and changed from one to the other.

[Ladyhawk]

Just a thought and maybe a possibility for James'  I wonder if his mother's maiden name was Toovey

Jem Toovey christened 24 Nov 1850 Hambleden Buckingham
Mother Jane Toovey (source family search)

Jim Toovey Mar 1851 Henley vol 16 page 85

and this could be Jane & James (Jim) on the census
Although haven't located a marriage for a Frances Whyte to Jane Toovey    

1861 RG 9; Piece: 32; Folio: 20; Page: 48
Francis Whyte 28 Dublin Ireland
Jane Whyte 30 (1831) Hambledon
James Toovey  son-in-law 10 (1851) Hambledon

and Jane's baptism

Jane Toovey christened 29 Jul 1829 Hambleden Buckingham parents William & Lucy

or both parents have died and he's in the Henley Workhouse with pob given as Henley

1851 HO107; Piece: 1725; Folio: 218; Page: 6 – Henley Workhouse
James T RANDALL 1848 Pauper 

Running out of ideas now  so will leave it with you

As previously mentioned hopefully the marriage certificate of James Toovey Rendall may hold the missing key

[bucksboy]

I can confirm the baptism for Harriet Beisley in Stoke Talmage.  7 Jan 1845.   Born  Dec 9th.  To James & Mary.  Labourer.

Plus siblings, James, Jane & Elizabeth and the others mentioned in 1851 Census.   (Surname variations apply - Beesley, etc.)

Marriage - James Beisley(b.) to Mary WAITE(sp.).  12 Dec 1835.  With parents consent.   Witnesses -   Thomas Tredwell, Elizabeth Beisley & James(x)Jones.

Steve.


From OxFHS - Stoke Talmage Transcripts CD.

[Elliefantasy]

Sorry all, I thought I had posted a reply thursday but apparantly not. Thank you so much for all your help, its such a great leap forwards, I now just have to tell my mum that she isn't technically a Perrin!

I had a dig and there does seem to be a completely random surname change after Aubrey is born but before Margarets birth from Randall in its many spellings to Perrin.

In 1851 there is a James T Randall aged 3 and an Elizabeth Randall aged 27. Elizabeth was a servant, and is unmarried, James birth place is listed as Henley, Oxon so I am guessing that he might have been born in the workhouse and they haven't managed to get out yet and that is where the record will be. I can ask for that as a search from Oxfordshire Records if I can't get there. I could probably get the marriage certificate for James but I don't know if he would know who his father is to put it down.  I can't find him in 1861 and somehow he has to end up with Harriett in or near Stoke Talmage so I don't think he would have gone outside of Oxfordshire. I did wonder if his father is a Perrin and that is why he eventually picked that name, it would be interesting to know why he waited to change it until after Aubrey was born.

It is also very very strange that Aubrey uses the Randal surname to register in the army with in 1915, but if he is down as Aubrey John Randal Perrin then he might be using both names. If you look at the record, Alice's name is put as Alice Eliza Jane Perrin alias Randal

I have had a little rummage for Elizabeth but can't seem to pin her down. I think I might leave her for a little while so I can concentrate on this little mystery. Hopefully there might be some details in the Workhouse records.

I have labelled this as completed now. Thanks again for everyones help, its nice to put one mystery to bed even if it opens up another. 

Elliefantasy

[tazzie]

  Hi

 this could be the basis for the name change
 Henley marriage 1853 on same page we have
 William Perrin
  Elizabeth Randall  vol 3a page 603
 
 a couple of William Perrin deaths in Henley
 one in late 1853 and one in 1863

 If so I wonder if this is Elizabeth in 1871...
 a marriage in Henley 1868 of Elizabeth Perrin possible spouse on same page is John Blake ...
 1871 census RG10/1427 F27 P9
 John Blake hd m 58 ag lab b Grays Oxon
 Elizabeth Blake wi m 44 b Hambledon Buck.
 Frederick Blake son u 16 ag lab b Nuffield Oxon
  Tazzie

[Ladyhawk]

In 1851 there is a James T Randall aged 3 and an Elizabeth Randall aged 27.

Elizabeth was a servant, and is unmarried, James birth place is listed as Henley, Oxon so I am guessing that he might have been born in the workhouse and they haven't managed to get out yet and that is where the record will be

I have had a little rummage for Elizabeth but can't seem to pin her down. I think I might leave her for a little while so I can concentrate on this little mystery. Hopefully there might be some details in the Workhouse records.

possibly James' christening

James Randall christened 11 Jun 1848 Hambleden Buckingham
mother Elisabeth Randall

Hambleden is a small village and civil parish within Wycombe district in the south of Buckinghamshire. It is about four miles west of Marlow, and about three miles north east of Henley on Thames in Oxfordshire.

Couldn't find a birth entry Jun qtr. 1848 Wycombe or Henley 

for info. this looks to be Elizabeth in 1841

HO107; Piece: 52; Book: 7; Civil Parish: Hambledon Bucks ED: 10; Folio: 6; Page: 6;
Elizabeth Randall 15 (1826)

I could probably get the marriage certificate for James but I don't know if he would know who his father is to put it down

Even though the marriage certificate may not give his father’s name there may be a possibility that one of the witnesses may hold a clue it could be a family member - perhaps his mother

As to his middle name TOOVEY another mystery - perhaps this was his father's surname

this could be the basis for the name change

Henley marriage 1853 on same page we have William Perrin  Elizabeth Randall  vol 3a page 603
 
1871 census RG10/1427 F27 P9
John Blake hd m 58 ag lab b Grays Oxon
Elizabeth Blake wi m 44 b Hambledon Buck.
Frederick Blake son u 16 ag lab b Nuffield Oxon

1853 marriage Elizabeth Randall to William Perrin posted by Tazzie looks interesting and
1868 marriage Elizabeth Perrin to John Blake

1861 RG 9; Piece: 884; Folio: 20; Page: 9 - Henley Watlington Oxford
Elizabeth Perrin Servant 38 (1823) Hambledon Nurse( marital status looks to be Mar)

So perhaps the J Perrin age 9 in Henley Work house in 1861 census you found is the same person as James T Randall age 3 in Henley Work house in 1851
1851  HO107; Piece: 1725; Folio: 221; Page: 12 & 1861c Henley Union Workhouse
there's a William Perren 58 Ag Lab. & W Perrin Mar 68 Henley

May be just a coincidence the only reason I’m posting this info. middle name of William but wrong pob for Elizabeth and noted as um 

1861 RG 9; Piece: 883; Folio: 83; Page: 2 – Parsonage Nuffield Oxfordshire
William TOOVEY Hopkins 1794 Cholsey Berkshire Rector of Nuffield
Elizabeth Perrin house servant age 24 Upton Berkshire 

So perhaps the J Perrin age 9 in Henley Work house in 1861 census you found is the same person as James T Randall age 3 in Henley Work house in 1851

Even though you have marked this as completed please do come back and let us all know how you get on - Good Luck