Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton

[Scranpot]

I'm just starting to research my Wolverhampton ancestors and have got as far back as William John Bate in the 1841 and 1851 census data, living at Lane Green, Tettenhall. He was born in St Ann, Soho, in about 1801, but I am getting nowhere there, and it seems that Bate is a very common Staffordshire name so maybe he had family there too; also, his wife Ann Lucas was born in Wolverhampton in about 1812.

All their nine children (those who survived infancy) were born in Tettenhall/Billbrook between c.1829 and 1852, and all five daughters were married in Catholic ceremonies, which makes me think their parents (or maybe just one of them) was Catholic. I'd like to find out if William and Ann got married in Wolverhampton, and research Ann Lucas's family in Wolverhampton. I'd also like advice on how I go about finding Catholic baptisms and burials. (I've had a look at the Wolverhampton Index of parish registers for burials, but it seems that a big chunk of unconsecrated - i.e. Catholics and other non-conformist - burials are missing during the relevant period.)

I'm planning to visit Wolverhampton Archive in a few weeks' time. Can anyone suggest good sources so I spend my time usefully? Also, would it be useful to visit the Birmingham Diocesan Archive if I can as well (or maybe instead)? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[ciderdrinker]

Dear Scranpot
There is one catholic church in Wolverhampton at this period.It called something like St Peter's and St Paul's and the printed volume is blue and on the shelves at Wolverhampton archives complete with index.
Tettenhall is usaully seperate from Wolverhampton for burials and would probably have your ancester there.The only fly being he was catholic.
There are indexs at wolverhamptonhistory.org which covers all of Wolverhampton including Tettenhall but I'm afriad doesn't have the catholic registers.
Good luck with your visit
Ciderdrinker
ps death Merridale William Bate 17.4.1866 age 64 lockmaker Great Hampton St st Peter's yours?

[Scranpot]

Many thanks for getting back to me! I'll see what I can find in the SS Peter and Paul volume at the Wolverhampton archive.

Finding Catholic burials is a real problem. It seems the Catholic Church does not necessarily record burials as burial is not a sacrament, and records of Catholic burials in C of E cemeteries are patchy. Some of my Catholic ancestors were buried in the Roman Catholic graveyard at Sedgely, but the church there has no records before the early 20th century. Maybe the Birmingham Diocesan Archive is the only hope.

If the lockmaker William Bate d. 1866 is one of mine I haven't come across him yet! My William John Bate is described variously as a linguist, professor of  languages, tutor etc. and he died in 1858 of 'Disease of the Liver'. And for all he sounds like an educated man, one of his sons had to make his mark, rather than sign his name, on his marriage certificate. I just have this feeling he might not have been a very good father ...

Scranpot

[ciderdrinker]

Dear Scranpot
Had another look around.The family are on the 1841 census it seems at Green Lane Tettenhall with a Mary Williams age 60.William John Bate tutor is down just as John.
There oldest daughter Eleanor has a baptism attched on Ancestry 23.8.1829 Roman Catholic registers Staffordshire to John and Ann Bate godparents Elizabeth Lucas and Thomas Livesley.Nothing for the rest of the children and no details of what parish etc.She dies as Eleanor Jones 1829-Sep 1874 Wolverhampton 6b 297 and marries John Jones steel lock maker.
Daughters Ann marries William Locan carpenter Dec 1854 Wolverhampton,Catherine Elizabeth Dec 1863 Job Brecknall watch maker and jewller and Mary(Maria) Victoria mar 1879 a Thomas Morrison
And there is a James francis Bate  up at the Staffordshire assises 1.7.1850 for larceny who recieved i months imprisonment and a whipping.Might be worth a look in the local paper.
All at the moment
Ciderdrinker

ps baptism turns out is from Wolverhampton -Staffordshire parish records society volume 64

[Scranpot]

What a sleuth you are, ciderdrinker! It took me months to assemble that lot ... though I wasn't sure Eleanor's baptism was her - as you say, there don't seem to be records for their other children. I wonder if Elizabeth Lucas was her aunt? I can't seem to find out much about the Lucas family; they might be the Catholics, I suppose. And although Bate seems to be a very common surname in Wolverhampton, my John William says he was born in London.

(In the 1841 census, I did wonder if Mary Williams actually belonged to the previous entry, which is for a Thomas Williams?)

William Lacon, carpenter, was my great grandfather. His daughter Jane married Joseph Morrison, who was her aunt Maria Victoria's brother-in-law!

Everything I've discovered about the Bates and Lacons is on ancestry.co.uk. Do you have a family, or a local, connection? Let me know if you want an invite to my tree.

Thanks for the suggestion of local papers for anything about poor James Francis Bate. If he's the James Francis Bate who was William John Bate's son, he was born in 1836 so was only fourteen in 1850 ... I can't find that he married, or when he died; in the 1861 and 1871 census data he is single, and an agricultural labourer.

[ciderdrinker]

Hello there,its me again Ciderdrinker.
Thank you for your lovely compliaments,I really only looked at Ancestry and a few websites.I've no connection to the Bate or Lucas family but I am local and do have my own families (Cochrane,Stevens,Horton and Sollom) at Wolverhampton so I have got used to the records there.
I did  have another lokk for your James Francis Bate but no luck I'm afraid,there are lots of James Bates but nothing I can pin down as him after 1871.
I did do a little sneeky research off line,not at wolverhampton I hasten to add but came up with nothing absolutely positive.Those catholic records are provinga bit of a pain.Birmingham Library did have a copy of Volume 64 catholic records Staffordshire.It covers baptisms and burials at Wolverhampton up to 1830 ,most entries after 1800.
I do believe I know who Ann's parents where and I would also say I know who her paternal grandparents where looking at the records.It's looking like her marriage to William John Bate is going to be really important but I had no luck with that either.I do want to disappoint but I can't find her baptism.
Ciderdrdrinker

[ciderdrinker]

Dear Scranpot,
This is what I did find for the Lucas family in Wolverhampton,you can choose whether to use it or not.
Catholic Register has 3 Lucas couples.
Elizabeth bapt 31.7.1829 to James and Rachel godparents Thomas Pool and Ursula Brandwood.
Elizabeth 3.12.1825 born 8.11. Edward and Sara godparents John Guisaini and Mary Latham
Mary Ann 29..7.1828 bapt 22.9.1828 daughter of Edward and Sara godparent Mary Wright.
And the couple who I think are Ann's parents.
Marianne   25.10.1799 d of  James and Elizabeth god parent Mary Barney
Elizabeth 3.7.1804  born 2.6. godparents Joseph Moore and Sara Simkiss mother's maiden name Day.
James 20.3.1806 godparents Thomas Wright and Ursula Simkiss
John 19.6.1809 born 2.6.1809 godparents William Simkiss and Mary Wright.
James Lucas married Elizabeth Day at Bushbury 27.1.1799 which hopefully will also be at Wolverhampton.
There does seem to be only one couple at the right date,but no baptism for an Ann unfortunately.
While you are at Wolverhampton it might be worth looking at the rate books which will provide an occupation for James and an address.John Roper has done a little book on these something like Occupations of Wolverhampton which should also be on the shelf.It doesn't include how much rent they paid or who was their landlord but it only about 30 pages and easier to read.
There is also a census entry for 1851 which may be James Lucas from the catholic registers
.1851 Chapel court
James Lucas 73 widower propieter of house    Wolverhampton
James  son 44 married  locksmith  Wolverhampton(he's the James and Rachel from the register with the rest of his family living in Horsefair).
James Junior also married at Bushbury 19 .4.1829 to Rachel Jackson.
Possible death James Lucas June 1852 Wolverhampton 6b 239which may help you track down a will.Sorry but this is probably going to be at Lichfield.
Possbile baptism for James Lucas 19.7.1777 St Peters to James Lucas and Lucy.
They married by licence at St Peter's 17.1.1774 (The bride being lucy Smith).
As I said no proof they are yours but they do seem to be the only Lucas family in Wolverhampton and they are catholic.
Any way good luck with your trip and I hope you find something positive.
Ciderdrinker
FOUND IT FOUND IT mariage Ann Lucas and William John Bate 21.10.1827 St Martin Birmingham.Sorry about that I got a bit excited.

[Scranpot]

Oh well done! You are kind. They must be my Ann Lucas and William John Bate, but it seems that St Martin Birmingham is the parish church, so presumably CofE. And I wonder why Birmingham? Imponderable ... although I have come across no Lucas witnesses at weddings, informants of death, visitors in census data, etc. - maybe Ann was thrown off by her family too! (The family history handed down to me was that William John Bate was estranged from his family.)

Thanks also for all the info about the Lucases. Yes, Bushbury is also Wolverhampton and not all that far from Tettenhall. Will see what I can find on ancestry about possible Lucases and then move on to the Wolverhampton Archive to check out all your other suggestions. Might the Wolverhampton Archive have a copy of the Catholic Registers you mention? I can't find it in their index.

Thanks again, Scranpot

[Scranpot]

Just had another thought - if I put all your findings on my tree on ancestry it might turn up some family connections - would you mind if I did that?

Scranpot