Author Topic: Gaelic language  (Read 5557 times)

Offline iwccc

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Gaelic language
« on: Wednesday 04 April 12 07:12 BST (UK) »
Does anyone know when and how extensively the Gaelic lanuage was used in Scotland - particularly around Glasgow. (Dumfriesshire, Renfrewshire, Islay etc.)   I am trying to find out if my forefathers used the language or not.  So far I am tracing back as far as the 1700's - was it used everywhere then?
Any help would be much appreciated.

Online KGarrad

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Re: Gaelic language
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 04 April 12 07:20 BST (UK) »
I was always led to believe that Scottish Gaelic was a Highland language.
Lowlanders spoke Scots?

Wiki has a decent article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline lizci

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Re: Gaelic language
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 04 April 12 20:25 BST (UK) »
People in places like Dumfriesshire and Renfrewshire would be highly unlikely to speak Gaelic, unless they'd migrated from the Highlands or Islands.  However if you had relatives in Islay they probably would have spoken Gaelic, as Argyll is a Highland county.  If you find your family in the 1891 Census, they will have said whether they spoke Gaelic, or Gaelic and English.  There was also a question in the 1881 census about whether people "habitually" spoke Gaelic, but apparently the response to that was much lower than to the 1891 question.
Lizci
Gilchrist, Twaddle, Jamieson - LANARKSHIRE; Moffat, Irving - DUMFRIESSHIRE; Ninian - FIFE/EDINBURGH/DUNDEE; Campbell - ARGYLL; Johnston - BERWICKSHIRE/ROXBURGHSHIRE/LANARKSHIRE; Swanston - BERWICKSHIRE; Pirie - ABERDEENSHIRE; Cameron - FORFARSHIRE/ABERDEENSHIRE; Alexander - FORFARSHIRE; Taylor - LANCASHIRE; Dee, Rudd, Vasseur - LONDON; Johnson, Wooding, Linger - BEDFORDSHIRE; Simmons, Lane - DEVON.

Online Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Gaelic language
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 05 April 12 00:38 BST (UK) »
According to Wikipedia, the use of Gaelic was in decline in mainland Scotland from the 15th century onwards.:

“The Gaelic language was introduced to Scotland by settlers from Ireland, probably in the 4th century.[13][14]

Scottish Gaelic itself developed after the 12th century, along with the other modern Goidelic languages. Scottish Gaelic and its predecessors became the language of the majority of Scotland after it replaced Cumbric, Pictish and in considerable areas Old English.[15] There is no definitive date indicating how long Gaelic has been spoken in today's Scotland, though it has been proposed that it was spoken in its ancient form in Argyll before the Roman period.[16] No consensus has been reached on this question; however, the consolidation of the kingdom of Dál Riata around the 4th century, linking the ancient province of Ulster in the north of Ireland and western Scotland, accelerated the expansion of the language, as did the success of the Gaelic-speaking church establishment, started by St Columba, and place-name evidence shows that Gaelic was spoken in the Rhinns of Galloway by the 5th or 6th century.[citation needed] The language was maintained by the trade empire of the Lordship of the Isles, which continued to control parts of Ulster until the 16th century.
[edit] From the Middle Ages to the end of Classical Gaelic education

The Gaelic language eventually displaced Pictish north of the River Forth, and until the late 15th century was known in Scots (then known as Inglis) as Scottis, and in England as Scottish. Gaelic began to decline in parts of mainland Scotland from the beginning of the 15th century, accompanying its decline in status as a national language, and eventually the highland-lowland line began to emerge.[citation needed]

From around the early 16th century, Scots language speakers gave the Gaelic language the name Erse (meaning Irish in Scots), and thereafter it was invariably the collection of Middle English dialects spoken within the Kingdom of Scotland, that they referred to as Scottis (see Scots language). This in itself was ironic, as it was at this time that Gaelic was developing its distinct and characteristic Scottish forms of the modern period.[17]

Scottish Gaelic was called "Erse" partly because educated Gaelic speakers in Ireland and Scotland all used the literary dialect (sometimes called Classical Gaelic) so that there was little or no difference in usage. When Classical Gaelic stopped being used in schools in both countries, colloquial usage began to predominate, and the languages diverged”.

It’s perhaps worth adding that many people from Dumfries and surrounding counties came to Ireland in the 1600s, either as a part of the Montgomery Hamilton settlement or the Plantation of Ulster. Their day to day language was English, so I think it’s pretty safe to say that English was the norm for everyday conversation in Dumfries in the 1600s anyway.
Elwyn


Offline iwccc

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Re: Gaelic language
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 05 April 12 08:38 BST (UK) »
Thank you so much for your very informative input.  This explains a lot.  I know my grandmother knew some Gaelic - she was on Islay for a period.  Wasn't so sure about those born in Dumfries, Glasgow etc.  Thanks again - most grateful.

Offline CaileanMac

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Re: Gaelic language
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 05 April 12 14:18 BST (UK) »
There are loads of misconceptions regarding Gaelic in Scotland. One of which is the timeless myth "Gaelic was never spoken here", my goodness I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard that!

The reality is that Gaelic was at its zenith around the 8th-9th century, influencing even the borders, hence why there are Gaelic placenames there. The influence of Gaelic gradually declined after this period, but existed in some lowland areas even into the 20th century. The idea that Gaelic was only ever a highland language is a myth, commonly repeated.

In my own area of the traditional county of Renfrewshire, I have read a map from the 1650s which shows many, many Gaelic place names in the area, mixed with those of Scots Language, however by 1650 nearly everyone would of been speaking Lowland Scots, although there were significant numbers of Gaelic speakers from other areas living there up to the 1920s.

Sadly due to government discrimination against Gaelic (among other factors), particularly through education reforms in the 1880s, the language went through a rapid decline through this period to about 1920, when there is a notable decline in native speakers. Now many of the native accents are now all but dead, and the standard 'mid-minch' is really the only main accent left.
Gr-Gr-Gr Grandparents and relevant areas: MacDonald (Skye/Renfrewshire/Glasgow), Johnstone (Inverness/Ayr/Glasgow), MacPherson (Ross/Glasgow), Irvine (Ireland/Glasgow), Berrie (Dunkeld/Glasgow), Biggar (Paisley/Glasgow), Bradley (Ireland/Glasgow), McCorkindale (Argyll/Glasgow), Hardie (Ireland/Greenock), Scott (Greenock) , Kane (Ireland), Maguire (Ireland), McLarty (Argyll/Greenock), McLean (Argyll/Greenock), Petrie (Fife/Dundee/Greenock), Graham (Argyll/Greenock).

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Gaelic language
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 05 April 12 23:39 BST (UK) »
In the 1600's the people of Dumfries spoke Scots, many still do. Gaelic was still spoken in parts of Galloway in the 18th century. Anciently the language spoken in SW Scotland was Welsh which was eclipsed by Gaelic which in turn was replaced by Scots. Placenames reflect this process even within Glasgow.

There was an excellent series of articles on Scotland's languages on NewsnetScotland which you might still be able to find.

Skoosh.

iwcc, here's the link,
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/arts-and-culture/3967-a-history-of-scottish-languages-parts1-and-2

Offline MrsL

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Re: Gaelic language
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 18 April 12 12:38 BST (UK) »
People on the fringes of Galloway spoke 'Galloway Irish', which I presume could have been a mixture of Scots and Irish Gaelic? I've never been able to find out much about the Galooway Irish, so more research needed on my part I think. Nice link above too, thanks, have bookmarked it :)
Hunter;Sykes

Offline MrsL

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Re: Gaelic language
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 18 April 12 12:40 BST (UK) »
Hunter;Sykes