John and Jean Barr Auckland 1842.

[Fresh Fields]

Hello Julie.
Today I was able to hand over a print out of your opening post and March 30 update, to the Mr BARR that I know. He is unaware of when their family first arrived in NZ. He said he would make enquires with in family, and will get back if members are interested in learning more.

- Alan.

[Croquetplayer]

Thank you Alan,

I am a bit tardy with my reply as I have been engaged in Armstrong research and hadn't come back to Rootschat for a while.

I appreciate your effort in delivering the info to the Barr family that you knew.

It turns out to be a name much like Smith in England. There are many families and I was lucky that others had found the right family for me.!!

Julie

[Timetraveller77]

I did learn that John Barr born 1823, married Isabella Barr born 1820. Presumably the young woman travelling on the Duchess of Argyle with the families but not part of either.



Hi Julie,
I just wanted to add some feedback regarding Scottish marriage customs and naming vairations for your interest, or future research in the hopes it helps.
I have a Scottish ancestor born circa 1820 that I couldn't find a marriage record for, despite us knowing that he was married once before. I learned that in those times it was quite common practice for a "handfasting marriage" to be held for a couple (like a trial marriage) to ascertain the fertility of the wife. This could last up to three months, in which time if it was found the woman was infertile, the man could break the trial marriage and move on to another wife, who could bear children. 
Perhaps this is the case of your John BARR and Isabella?? 

Secondly, the Scottish name of Jean was commonly transcribed in records as "Jane", which is the English derivitive.  Janet is another derivitive of Jean or Jane.
Just something to consider when searching records....try all variations of the name, and see what pops up.

Incidentally I have loads of BARR relatives who lived on the Isle of Bute, which is just off the mainland coast of Paisley. Some of my BARR rellies moved to Paisley from Bute, and vice versa.

[Croquetplayer]

Thank you Time Traveller,

I appreciate what you have shared with me.
I am researching  families in Cumberland in the 1700's and have read reports from churchmen of their "trial" marriages.
These Cumberland families were on both sides of the border.

I didn't realize it was to check whether a woman was fertile!!

Well I guess it would have helped women too, in the event of the husband being infertile.
Although she might be seen as infertile and unmarriageable, in that event, when she wasn't infertile.
Love never got a look in!

Makes the women seem like cattle purchased in a market place.

I will keep in mind all the name derivations. That's good advice.

Julie

[janieg]

Hi All
Just to add to the conversation re John Barr. John Barr born 1822, married Isabella Barr born 1832, in 1850.  My records say that John and Isabella were cousins.  John's parents were John Barr and Jean Calder (perhaps step mother) and Isabella's parents were William Barr and Jean/Jane Browne. Death certificates mention they were born Johnstone  Renfrewshire Scotland. They were my grandfathers parents.

Janie G

[Croquetplayer]

Thanks Janie G.

Every detail helps to expand the tree.  We are trying to find the parents of all of those Barrs listed on the manifest.

Your John and my Jeanie were brother and sister.
Nice to meet a new cousin regardless how far it goes back.

regards

Jules

[LiamJDB]

It might be worth my adding to the discussion by saying that "trial" marriage and "handfasting" marriage, which are supposed to have been ways of testing fertility, never in fact existed, but are much more recent folkloric inventions - I've just read "Marriage Law for Genealogists" by Professor Rebecca Probert, who's the world's leading authority on the history of marriage laws and practices, which explains in detail that the idea of this kind of informal or trial marriage are complete myths, invented either by the Victorians or even by C20th folklorists. She's also written a number of academic articles on the origins of the myths of trail marriage, broomstick weddings, handfasting and so on. Her book really is excellent for getting a much clearer understanding of the truth about the legal and social choices your ancestors had, without being coloured by the mythology and folklore. Also, I'm sure be very interested in hearing from you - she's at Warwick University and encourages genealogists to contact her with their stories of ancestors interesting marriages.

[Croquetplayer]

Thanks LiamJDB,

I haven't any idea about marriage custom.  To me they either married or they didn't. Just like today.

Thanks for your input though because my lack of knowledge could lead me to make wrong assumptions.


Jules

[LiamJDB]

Hi Jules

Interesting to hear you say you don't have any preconceived ideas about marriage customs - I've been working on the history of marriage law and practice for a while now, as Prof Probert's husband and sometime publisher, and the family history world seems to divide into people who start out with a belief in widespread 'folk' customs such as "jumping the broom" and "handfasting", and people who've never heard of them (because they didn't exist!). The long and the short of it is that before the late 1960s formal marriage was almost universal amongst couples who had a stable, sexual relationship. Basically, they married! The option of not marrying if you were in a sexual relationship, especially one that led to pregnancy, only dates back to the 1960s in statistically significant numbers. It was no more a lifestyle choice than getting dressed before you left the house!

Good luck with the genealogy!

Liam