Arthur Crabtree born 12 October 1892

[Beg Clonrode...]

The other [brother] possibly Ernest.

Certainly seems to be the case...

Hawera & Normanby Star, 18 October 1921

Eltham Magistrate's Court - A Licensing Case
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0kvr/

Possibly the corresponding burial for Ernest at Te Henui Cemetery, New Plymouth
http://www.newplymouthnz.com/CouncilAtoZ/CemeteriesAndCrematorium/CemeterySearch.htm

and a probate at Archives NZ...

CRABTREE Ernest   1954 - 1954
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23004222

May mention his younger brother Arthur. May not

Regards
Beg

[Special Needs Girl]

Thanks everyone for your help. 

You have been working hard while I have been sleeping and then working today.

Yes Rupert & Ernest were the two brothers who went to NZ.  Their sister stayed in Edmonton all her life.

My mother used to tell me that Ernest (who was known as Uncle Jack) worked his steerage from the UK to NZ.

It was he who settled before 1911 and then persuaded Rupert to join them so he moved out with his wife & 2 children.

Yes Beg - that was the article I found on the NZ papers site.  I have read everyone associated with Crabtree!

I saw the Licensing Case article that you have highlighted .... again I am wondering about it.

On the 1901 census in the UK the children were living with their mother Alice and her 'husband' Abraham Coleman.

Despite extensive searches I have found NO records for an actual marriage.  Poor Abraham died not long after the census so Alice was again a widow.

Because the children were listed as COLEMAN, I have searched for Arthur Coleman but nothing jumps out.

HOWEVER ....  the article above the Licensing Case is about Osmond Thomas Coleman stealing a car.

That same Osmond Thomas Coleman is the youth who wanted liquor in Ernest's buisness.

The date of the article is 18 Oct 1921.  Could Osmond be Arthur?

I have tried looking for a birth of this name in the UK on a*******  but cannot find one.

I did notice that Osmond's name appears on NZ electoral rolls but I do not have world wide subscription so cannot check anything.

Was an Osmond T A really born in NZ?

If he wasn't known to the hotel why would he try to buy liquor there?  Had he tried before?

However if a charity box is stolen by you would you go back to the same place?

I have tried to find a follow up article saying they had found the empty charity box or nothing was ever found ... but nothing.

I honestly thought I would have found something with all the internet access but it would appear not.

Thanks again everyone for your help.

SNG

[Special Needs Girl]

Sorry a day working has not helped my brain.

My maths is wrong - Osmond can't be Authur --  Arthur would be 29 years old not 19.  Sorry.

Better go to bed!!!

SNG

[Lucy2]

Osmond Thomas COLEMAN

Born - New Zealand -- 1901

S/o  Ann Maria and Thomas Edward COLEMAN

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hi again...

It's a very long shot but, as I said earlier, you could try ordering probates from Archives NZ. Not only for Ernest but for Rupert's two children, Rupert George and Ruth Maggie.

You never know who or what may be mentioned in the file. And it may lead to a descendant here in NZ who has an interest in family history and knows all the answers.

There's no direct cost involved for you as you're relying on the kindness of a fellow rootschatter. He/she will visit the Archives on your behalf, take photos of the file, and then email the photos to you.

Here's an example of a successfully completed Wellington Archives look-up request....

Wellington Archives Probate - McNeil
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,583765.0.html

and here are the links you'd need to include in your request...

CRABTREE Ernest   1954
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23004222

MCMILLAN Ruth Maggie - 1958
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23053215

CRABTREE Rupert George   1974
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23078253


Regards
Beg

[Special Needs Girl]

Thanks Lucy2

That means that Arthur is not Osmond.  Thinking about it afterwards the maths did not work out - thats why I put it down to tiredness.  However it is nice to have it confirmed.  Thanks again



Thanks too Beg.

I know that Ernest left his estate to his wife and something to his nephew George.  His wife May actually left something to my mother.
I would have thought Rupert & his wife Maggie left everything to George & Ruth their children.

However if I wanted a copy of May Crabtree's Will who would I contact?  It would be nice to read the part where my mother is mentioned.

Rupert and Jack (Ernest) kept in contact with their sister Maud and brother Robert (twin of Arthur) until their deaths.
When my grandfather died my mother continued the writing to May and George.

Arthur never contacted anyone.  All the family knew about his 'lightfingeredness' but no-one knows what happened to him afterwards.

I did look carefully at the archived NZ newspapers to see if any unknown bodies had been found or bodies washed up. 

Ironically it was the older brother Rupert who put the twins in the orphanage!

Do you think I should post my message on the Australian and Canadian sites on Roots?

I have posted this on the UK site and it was a kind soul who suggested I posted it on the NZ site.

Its just so nice that people are willing to help.

best wishes everyone

SNG

[spades]

Hi SNG,

Is this the probate you were enquiring about?

Emma May Azelia CRABTREE.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23012726

I can take photos of the file if you wish (and the others listed by Beg Clonrode if you want them).

Spades

[Lucy2]

Hi SNG

Yes, I think it's worth "casting the net" further and posting on the Canadian board particularly (and possibly also on the Australian board).   

[I did search (some) Australian death and cemetery records - to no avail ... but much better to utilise the expertise of those with additional resources in Australia. ] 

Incidentally, I see that Arthur was still in the UK (London area) in 1911 (boarding with a couple).  It's possible that he worked his passage to NZ and that's why we've not found him amongst the passenger lists.

Good luck.   

   ~    Lu

[Special Needs Girl]

Thanks Spades and Lucy2.

From what I remember my mother saying - Ernest paid for Arthur to travel to NZ.  He seemed to prosper in NZ and was a respected business man from all accounts.  It must have been highly embarassing for him when Arthur stole from them.

That is very kind of you to offer to take photos of the probates for me.  How do I provide contact details for you to send to me?  Am I allowed to put email addresses on here?

Yes that is Jack's wife.

Best wishes

SNG