Alfred CLUNEY b. London abt 1831, d. Sydney 1873

[kennett]

There is apparently a Henry Cluney (c.1819-1881),   who's father was apparently a Francis Cluney,  and also had a son called Francis,   and also had a daughter called Harriet,   which is a name that Alfred Cluney(1826-1873) and Francis Cluney(1828-1887)  gave to their first daughters.   

I am suspecting that this Henry Cluney is a brother of Alfred and Francis,   and son of Francis who was married in 1815,  it would be surprising if he had no other children until 1826.

Sources, references

I am not sure who you think you are,   to be petulantly demanding sources and references for every speculative remark, hypothesis or suggestion,  but on this occasion I will indulge your arrogance.

Henry Cluney appears in the 1851 UK census,  aged 33,  born Lancashire.  He appears again in the 1871 UK census,  aged 52,  born Liverpool Lancashire.   He was married on 4 June 1851 to Louisa Matthews,  daughter of James Matthews,  at All Saints, Lambeth, London.  Henry's father's name is recorded as Francis Cluney.  Source LDS Familysearch index.   Henry's wife Louisa appears in the 1871 census,  aged 53,  born Churchfield Sussex.  Churchfield is near Hastings.  Henry and Louisa appear to have had three children..  Louisa Margaret Cluney ( 1852-1854 ),   Louisa Sophia Cluney (b. 1856,  appears in 1871 census aged 15 )  and Henry James Cluney ( 1854-1855 ).   It would appear based on the location of these events,   that they moved to Brighton,  and later back to Lambeth in London again.
Henry and his family live consistently in Lambeth, London for more than 50 years.

A person going by the username of Maggie Kyte has posted a tree on the internet concerning this family.  I note that a great-granddaughter of Henry Cluney married a man called Kyte in the 1920's,  so I conjecture this woman is a direct descendant of this family.  I sent her an email last week,  I haven't had any response as yet.   All of the details she has published about this family seem to be plausible, potentially verifiable and consistent.  Based on what this Maggie Kyte has published, she seems like neither an idiot nor a fantasist.  She even has photos of the more recent ones,  presumably her own grandparents or great-grandparents.

Henry Cluney appears to have been married before Louisa Matthews.  The 1851 census suggests he had at least three children before his marriage to her,  with children Harriet, Francis and George aged 9 4 and 2.  Maggie Kyte has posted a copy of the birth certificate of Francis Cluney (b.1847) online,  which appears to state that his mother is Mary Cluney formerly Dixon.  Neither Maggie Kyte nor myself can observe the apparent marriage of this Henry Cluney to Mary Dixon.   Nor is the death of Henry Cluney's supposed first wife, Mary, apparent in the 1849-1851 time frame when she would have apparently died.   This is an acknowledged lacuna in this hypothesis.  Given the propensity of these Cluneys to visit Ireland,  maybe he married there ?

Louisa Cluney died in 1875, aged 57, at Lambeth,  and Henry apparently had a third marriage in 1875.  Henry Cluney died in 1881,  aged 62.

The LDS sources reveal a man called Francis Cluney was married to a woman called Margaret Horne at the Holy Trinity Church,  Liverpool, Lancashire, England on 1 May 1815.   The LDS sources record the baptism of 6 or 7 children for this couple,  some of them recorded many times,   and some of them under the name of Clooney and some as Cluney.      These are Harriet Cluney, baptised 12 May 1816 at St Peters, Liverpool,   Richard Henry Cluney bapt St Peters Liverpool 1818,  Alfred Cluney bapt 15 Oct 1820 at St Peters Liverpool,  Francis bapt 18 Sept 1822 at St Peters Liverpool,  Alfred Blackly Cluney bapt 29 April 1827 at St George London,  and Francis Frederick Cluney bapt 31 May 1829  St Dunstan Stepney London.   Alfred born 1827 and Francis born 1829 were both in the military and both of them died in Australia.     Both of them claimed to be the sons of Francis Cluney,  an excise official,  a very uncommon name (  except for four generations of this family ).

There are two Alfreds and Francis in this list.   There are several scenarios which would have to be considered.  (1)  The first Alfred and Francis died  (2)   They were baptised twice (quite common)  (3)  They are completely different families and not connected.   (2) is plausible, except that the military and australian records have ages which appear to confirm the birth dates of 1827 and 1829.   That leaves (1) or (3). 

Henry Cluney,  who claimed when he married in 1851 that his father's name was Francis Cluney,  and claimed in the 1851 and 1871 censuses that he was born in Liverpool, Lancashire ,  and gave ages corresponding to having been born in about 1819,   may, or may not,  be the Richard Henry Cluney baptised at Liverpool in 1818 with parents Francis and Margaret Cluney.   Or possibly this Richard died and Henry was born the following year.

A Francis Cluney, who lived at Mile End Old Town, died in 1830.   A Margaret Cluney aged 74 died in 1869,  a plausible candidate for the Margeret Horne married in 1815 to Francis Cluney.

[kennett]

part 2:  message divided because it exceeds 5000 character limit.


Francis Cluney born in 1847 died in 1920,  he married a woman called Julia Casey,  and he had one son,  Henry Maurice Cluney born about 1885.   Francis Cluney is recorded as an employee in a clothing factory.   Francis, Julia and Henry Maurice appear in the 1901 and 1911 census.   Henry Maurice Cluney married Louisa Lillian Gray in 1905  and they had at least 5 children between 1905 and 1911 ,  who appear in the 1911 census,  one of their children was the fourth Francis Cluney, born in 1906.

Francis Frederick Cluney born 1829 was in the Crimean War.  His medals were auctioned in London, last year.  He then lived in London, in Ireland, at Cork and Wales before moving to Adelaide in 1882, where he died in 1887 in spectacular fashion.    Francis born 1847 also lived at Cork, where his son Henry Maurice was born ( as claimed in the 1901 and 1911 census as Henry Maurice's birthplace ).

The first identifiable child of Henry, of Alfred and of Francis was called Harriet, in each case,  which is curious.

There is only one other family of Cluneys in the south east of england.  A John Cluney married a Martha Harrison, from Queensborough Kent,  and their children and grandchildren are speculatively identifiable in the BDM records and the census records.  They appear to account for all the other Cluneys that occur in SE England.  It is not a common name,  although confounded by the alternative spelling Clooney.   I am not speculating on any link between this family of John Cluney and the descendants of Francis Cluney,  I only remark that these two families appear to account for all identifiable Cluney BDM and census entries in SE England.

The key elements of my speculative analysis of this family are,    that the family of Henry Cluney (1819-1881),  whose father was allegedly Francis ( as claimed to the clergyman at his 1851 marriage ),    and the brothers Alfred and Francis Cluney ( born 1827 and 1829 ),   who parents were Francis Cluney, the tax official,  and his wife Margaret,    are the same.      And futhermore,   that the Francis and Margaret Cluney who lived in London in the 1820's,   are the same ones who married and had children at Liverpool after 1815.

The records of registrars, marriage celebrants and census takers are only as good as what people tell them.  If someone shows up at the church to be married,  and says their father's name was Francis,  but he is dead,  and therefore not going to show up to the wedding,  then who is going to argue with them ?

[Neil Todd]

Quote from KENNETT. Yesterday at 18.52.
"There is apparently a Henry Cluney (c.1819-1881),   who's father was apparently a Francis Cluney,  and also had a son called Francis,   and also had a daughter called Harriet,   which is a name that Alfred Cluney(1826-1873) and Francis Cluney(1828-1887)  gave to their first daughters."

Ah I don't believe the above is actually either a speculative remark, hypothesis or suggestion, but instead, a statement of FACT.

In which case on this forum it is usual to supply a source for the information!!

Neil

[majm]

Ah I don't believe the above is actually either a speculative remark, hypothesis or suggestion, but instead, a statement of FACT.

In which case on this forum it is usual to supply a source for the information!!

Neil

May I please support Neil's comment.  By asking for a source for the information, no one in this forum is ever actually attempting to undermine the information, but simply being sensible researchers, and asking for the source so that the OP has the source to in turn validate that information for themselves.
 
So with a recognised independent source, we can then help the OP turn factoid into relevant fact.  Surely that ought to be the aim for any family history buff.

Cheers,  JM

[Lisa Bissett-Dick]

Alfred Cluney Married my gg Aunt Elizabeth Dalzell  ,

[majm]

Hi there,

Welcome to RootsChat, a great place for help with your family history.

The RChatter who started this thread has not been back on RChat since May 2012.   I am not a family member, but I have a long standing interest in family history, particularly when it involves NSW in the 19th Century.   May I please encourage you to ask for further information about your g g Aunt, Elizabeth Dalzell, if you want us to look up from our own resources if you have any ‘blanks’ in your own research.   

You will find we are a friendly lot here, as I am sure the regulars will be along shortly to also welcome you.

Most likely once we know what information you want us to look up about your gg Aunt, we may well ask our Moderator to consider popping your enquiries on a new thread, so that we don’t get too confuddled with the earlier info about these Alfred Cluney chaps.   

In the meantime,  ask away !

Again, Welcome,

Cheers,  JM

[Neil Todd]

Hullo Lisa, Welcome to Rootschat, hopefully the original poster will get the message and you two can compare notes.

Neil