Ruins and Romans, Fonts and Furrows. Anything Old in Lancashire

[Deb D]

Thank you, Maggie, for reincarnating this - I'm totally rapt!

Meanwhile - slightly off-topic, but then you were discussing plagues, ... I've recently seen a program on telly, about the possibility that more than one disease actually got misdiagnosed and labelled "The Black Death" or "Bubonic Plague".  According to the written reports, there seemed to be quite a few conflicting symptoms.  From what I recall, some symptoms sounded similar to what we, today, would call meningococcal disease, ... there were no "buboes" as such, just dark or black marks on the skin.

So ... perhaps the rats and fleas weren't entirely to blame, after all?! 

[Maggie.]

So glad this is proving of interest.

As we have been talking of the possible impact of plague in Lancashire, I think it's appropriate to put in this link to a page embedded in the really interesting web page Su posted a link to at reply #82:-

http://www.abandonedcommunities.co.uk/blackdeath.html

Scott and Duncan argue that the disease was not Bubonic Plague but a haemorrhagic disease transmitted by an unknown virus.  One of the reasons they give for reaching this conclusion is that the Black Death occured in countries where rats and/or fleas, the supposed carriers, did not exist, for example Iceland.

[Maggie.]

Might be interesting; http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/23797/pages/4739

So there were two Ogden Reservoirs in Lancashire - one near Bury/Haslingden and the other at Barley.

[youngtug]

Scott and Duncan argue that the disease was not Bubonic Plague but a haemorrhagic disease transmitted by an unknown virus.  One of the reasons they give for reaching this conclusion is that the Black Death occured in countries where rats and/or fleas, the supposed carriers, did not exist, for example Iceland.

I think that the rat went on board the ships. The rats followed the human population.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rattus_rattus.jpg

If I remember correctly someone in France has extracted bubonic plague [dna?] from teeth taken from a plague pit.

The Justinian plague from earlier centuries might and might not have been bubonic plague.

[youngtug]

Found it  http://www.pnas.org/content/97/23/12800.full.pdf

[Maggie.]

http://www.liv.ac.uk/researchintelligence/issue24/blackdeath.html

They argue that The Black Death and Bubonic Plague are two separate diseases.

[youngtug]

Really interesting, must keep an eye on this.

[Wiggy]

I think Meningococcal meningitis that someone mentioned earlier is a type of haemorrhagic disease too isn't it.  Fascinating stuff - I didn't think there were 17-28 million people in Europe at that time in history - learn something every day don't you!  

[Greensleeves]

This is all quite fascinating.  I think I mentioned earlier the book by Barbara W Tuchman 'A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century' which is really a very interesting source of information about the black death.  I must see if I can find my copy now; not sure I've seen it since we moved house.....

But certainly from the links you have posted it would seem likely that the black death and bubonic plague were not the same disease.  Interesting that brown rats are not indigenous to Great Britain; I didn't know that.