Author Topic: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden  (Read 5197 times)

Offline keyboard86

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 09:59 GMT (UK) »
Mike, never ever say that they are not related, you never know!!

In 1871 Joseph Oates has a nephew Clement Oates aged 15 and niece Harriet A 11 with him and Sarah (Now b Middx)

1861 census if someone could look at original for any more info:-

George Oates 36 occ File Cutter b London
Hannah M 30 b  Wadsley Yorks
Ellenor 6 b Sheffield
Oates son 5 b Sheffield
Harriett A 2 b Sheffield
Residing at Channing Street, Sheffield
Census ref RG10/3464/71/19

If the Sophia b Mortlake in 1851 is same one, in combination with above birth possibly in London, I would check for a London marriage?
Keyboard86


Pelly/Pelley/Kingsbury/Challis/Nalder/Rochester/Raydenbow

UK Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline karenlee

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 10:06 GMT (UK) »
Okay... so in various Census, both George and Sophia give birthplaces as Surrey?  Does that tell us something about where they might have married?snap Keyboard.... I thought you were going to sleep


1861 Census England Yorkshire Nether Hallam
RG9/3464/71/19
Channing Street

OATES
George Head Marr 36 File Cutter London
Hannah M Wife Marr 30 Yorkshire Wadsley
Ellenor Dau Unmarr 6 Scholar Yorkshire Sheffield
Clemment Son Unmarr 5 Scholar Yorkshire Sheffield
Hariet A Dau Unmarr 2 Yorkshire Sheffield
George C ROBOTTOM Lodger Unmarr 25 File Cutter Yorkshire Sheffield
Census Information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline karenlee

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 10:16 GMT (UK) »

A possible but no proof...

Marriage Register
St Mary Ealing
Ealing

George OATES of this Parish Bachelor and Sophy BEASLEY of this Parish Spinster were married in this Church by Banns this 24th day of August 1818. Both bride and groom signed and the witnesses were Harriet HALL and Frederick GEORGE

Cheers
Karenlee
Census Information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline mgc

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 10:18 GMT (UK) »
It gets worse --> George Oates and Sophia had 5 children !?!

And Sophia then marries Alfred Holden (in late 1838) who is but a mere few years older than Sophia's eldest child by George Oates! ... That is, if the 1861 48-yr-old widowed Alfred Holden in Sheffield is the same Alfred Holden that married Sophia Oates in 1838, which the indicators suggest he is.

I'm thinking this is all pretty remarkable, especially given the era.

Mike
Jackson YKS, Sidney YKS, Bagshaw YKS & DBY, and to a lesser extent: Glossop, Hudson YKS


Offline mgc

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 10:33 GMT (UK) »
Mike, never ever say that they are not related, you never know!!

In 1871 Joseph Oates has a nephew Clement Oates aged 15 and niece Harriet A 11 with him and Sarah (Now b Middx)

1861 census if someone could look at original for any more info:-

George Oates 36 occ File Cutter b London
Hannah M 30 b  Wadsley Yorks
Ellenor 6 b Sheffield
Oates son 5 b Sheffield
Harriett A 2 b Sheffield
Residing at Channing Street, Sheffield
Census ref RG10/3464/71/19

If the Sophia b Mortlake in 1851 is same one, in combination with above birth possibly in London, I would check for a London marriage?
Keyboard86




Mine were ekeing-out a living at the Sheffield Manor Lodge ruins at the time; then emigrated to the US in Nov 1848.  They knew the Dec 1838 Sheffield wedded pair: John Glossop and bride Ann Hudson, but the Holdens were strictly John Glossop's, if they were anybody's.

Mike

Mike
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Offline karenlee

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 10:45 GMT (UK) »

I'm thinking this is all pretty remarkable, especially given the era.



Not really.  It happened then as it happens now.  People marry for all sorts of reasons, sometimes obvious ones and sometimes simply to have someone to support them and their children.  I have 2 or 3 in my line who did just that.
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Offline mgc

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 12:26 GMT (UK) »
Karenlee, you're right.... I suppose that makes sense, most especially given that women didn't have the freedoms and the employment options back then as they do now.  It was a different world.

After all, what were the options for Sophia and her children -- the poor house, work house, prison, starvation, deportation?  I guess for a middle-age woman in Sophia's circa 1838 position, marrying anybody that was willing was about as preferable as it got, regardless of age .... and then, as now, no relationship is necessarily guaranteed, hence the apparent falling-out with Alfred Holden, and the subsequent fling with Thomas Smith.

For some reason, the term "organic" comes to mind.  I don't know why, really, but there ya go.... organic, and very human.

Mike
Jackson YKS, Sidney YKS, Bagshaw YKS & DBY, and to a lesser extent: Glossop, Hudson YKS

Online dobfarm

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 12:41 GMT (UK) »

A possible but no proof...

Marriage Register
St Mary Ealing
Ealing

George OATES of this Parish Bachelor and Sophy BEASLEY of this Parish Spinster were married in this Church by Banns this 24th day of August 1818. Both bride and groom signed and the witnesses were Harriet HALL and Frederick GEORGE

Cheers
Karenlee


Sophia as wife of Thomas Smith 1851c says she was born Mortlake (near Kew & Richmond) that is only about 3 miles from Ealing

I think Sophia is telling fibs about her age in the census and really born between 1795 to 1800
In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth

Offline karenlee

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Re: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 11 January 12 22:27 GMT (UK) »

mgc

It was the same in some ways for widowed men too.  If they had a young family to raise it was cheaper for them to marry someone than employ a housekeeper.  Once again, a purely practical view of the world rather than the romantic one we prefer today.  I suppose one would be considered somewhat mercenary if they announced that they were marrying someone for those reasons today.

I have to wonder if any of them really knew their true ages??
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