Author Topic: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH  (Read 2845 times)

Offline Kollies

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Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« on: Sunday 01 January 12 12:04 GMT (UK) »
Hi and happy new year,

I was wondering if anybody would be able to help me translate the writings from the marriage document of my great grandparents?  All of the other marriages on the page don't have an additional inscription, so I'm assuming it will give some extra information.

Here is the link to the picture http://ow.ly/i/oPul 

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Hollingsworth
Rose
Howey
Everitt
Wright
Burns
Gray
Pover

Offline stonechat

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Re: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 01 January 12 12:52 GMT (UK) »
Obt (?Obtain) desp ?post  de impedimento
                                           of impediment

mixtae Relgionis post matrimonium
mixed religion after marriage

coram ministro ?catholico
before catholic minister

vittentatum fuit
?

That's a start
Douglas, Varnden, Joy(i)ce Surrey, Clarke Northants/Hunts, Pullen Worcs/Herefords, Holmes Birmingham/USA/Canada/Australia, Jackson Cheshire/Yorkshire, Lomas Cheshire, Lee Yorkshire, Cocks Lancashire, Leah Cheshire, Cook Yorkshire, Catlow Lancashire
See my website http://www.cotswan.com

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 01 January 12 15:44 GMT (UK) »
Hello,

The inscription seems to indicate [as Latin never translates verbatim to English and even my explanation is clumsy] that the marriage was discharged [not sanctified] for reasons of perplexity after the attempted marriage before a Catholic minister, on the basis of an impediment to the marriage in the Catholic church of the mixed religion of the parties.

Hope this helps.
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE

Offline clayton bradley

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Re: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 01 January 12 22:46 GMT (UK) »
"obtained Apostolic dispensation concerning the impediment of mixed religion after marriage in the presence of a Catholic priest was attested." It sounds to me as though an irregularity was being corrected post marriage, but I may well be wrong, claytonbradley
Broadley (Lancs all dates and Halifax bef 1654)


Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 01 January 12 23:26 GMT (UK) »
Was the marriage was eventually completed?  If so, then perhaps the correct interpretation lies somewhere between our two takes on it.

The first three abbreviated words hold the key and generally "obt." is Latin abbreviation of obitum indicating the death of the subject, or in this case the discharge or failure of some aspect of the marriage.

My knowledge of Catholic marriage both in Europe and North America would suggest that perhaps, the notation is indicating that the marriage proceeded but only after and upon the necessity of obtaining the dispensation from the Apostolic which would overrule or negate the impediment to the marriage.  In Europe a mixed marriage would not likely be sanctioned.  In North America a mixed marriage would be sanctioned only after assurances had been made to the Priest that the children of the marriage would be raised Catholic and the spouse would be permitted to follow the Catholic religion and teachings.  In either case, it is my understanding that if there is an impediment to a Catholic marriage, that impediment must be removed or otherwise satisfied - discharged - before the marriage was permitted to proceed.

As I cannot determine what country this entry relates to I cannot say anything more precise.
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE

Offline davidrigg3

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Re: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 04 January 12 12:21 GMT (UK) »
As I cannot determine what country this entry relates to I cannot say anything more precise.

If the green band across the top of the image is to be believed then it is England
Rigg/Scholfield - Oldham/Rochdale
Hibbert/Moore - Hayfield/Saddleworth
Garstang/Kirby - Littleborough/Todmorden
Sutcliffe/Hill - Todmorden/Walsden
Young/Stevenson/Newbutt - Ticknall/Kegworth/Nutall/Hucknall/Bulwell
Woolley/Potter, Gaze/Parkins - Kegworth/Normanton-on-Soar/Wheathampstead/Harpenden
Smith/Green - Offley/Flamstead

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 04 January 12 14:44 GMT (UK) »
The green band wasn't visible when I first viewed it. 

The green band is certainly helpful.  But I still am not certain if the rules of marriage were as strictly adhered to in Britain as they were in Italy, Germany or French Canada whereby dispensation had to be obtained before any marriage could be entered into. 
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE

Offline clayton bradley

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Re: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 04 January 12 20:38 GMT (UK) »
By coincidence, this question has just been answered by Jim Lancaster on another forum. He says that the Catholic Church issued a document in 1908 called "ne temere" regularising marriage practices  because the way things were done had become very confused.  The problem is that in England from 1754 till the start of civil registration Catholics had to marry in the Church of England in order to have a legal marriage. Some Catholics had two marriages and some didn't. claytonbradley
Broadley (Lancs all dates and Halifax bef 1654)

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Help translating from LATIN to ENGLISH
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 05 January 12 05:57 GMT (UK) »
Yes, Lord Hardwicke's Act (1753 - (citation 26 Geo. II. c. 33)) certainly did make things that were already difficult for non-conformists and papists that much more difficult.  I have long suspected that English Catholics continued to go through their own marriage rite after the C of E marriage had taken place, barring RC marriage on the continent or in Scotland.

Have you found a C of E as well as RC marriage for your fellow?  If so, which one came first?
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE