Author Topic: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9  (Read 39970 times)

Offline Spidermonkey

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #189 on: Tuesday 06 December 16 21:10 GMT (UK) »
Using the GRO birth index to look at MMN,

Rosina Culmer bn J qtr 1852 Shoreditch has MMN as "-"
Rosina Culmer bn M qtr 1858 St Lukes has MMN as Hale
Rosina Urwin bn J qtr 1866 St Lukes has MMN as Cullmer

(There is a point to this, because I'm trying to get to the bottom of who belongs to who!)

I think the first time we see Georgette Cullmer/Urwin/Smith is as a 3 year old 1861 with her mother Ann and brother Alfred James Urwin  RG 9; Piece: 244; Folio: 2. 
Alfred James Urwin bn J qtr Shoreditch 1860 MMN Culmer
but if Ann and Alfred don't marry until 1859 then Georgette should be registered under Ann's maiden name of Cullmer

Offline Spidermonkey

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #190 on: Tuesday 06 December 16 21:38 GMT (UK) »
I know I am jumping around a bit, but I think I might have some info that I don't remember us having before (maybe we do  ::))

Have we got that Alfred Urwin, Thomas Mahoney and John Day were found guilty of stealing two watches, and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment and hard labour in Wandsworth?  Tried on 25th Oct 1859

1861 he's in the house of correction in Lewes RG 9; Piece: 586; Folio: 23; Page: 4

Offline Aceh

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #191 on: Tuesday 06 December 16 23:35 GMT (UK) »
Evening all,


Mary Culmer eldest child of Edward and Annie Gardner Coles we have no record of her after 1841 census in Limehouse.

and the big one! WHO was Georgetta Culmer how does she actually fit in - she is giving me a headache!
the one who says her father is William - didn't she marry Noble Smith ?

Quickly answering the above:

1, Mary, the only likely siting that i have is in 1851 was as a Maid Servant in a large house in Marylebone but this is uncertain. If this is Mary then there is a death in Paddington 1891 for a servant of the same name. Details of this not presently to hand.

2. Georgette Culmer, born 1859 Shoreditch, was the daughter of Alfred's sister Annie Susan by Alfred Urwin, born c1831 Hoxton, a shoemaker in St Lukes. Alfred U and Annie Susan had at least 2 other children: Alfred James born Q2 1860 and Annie Susan jr born Q1 1862.

To expand on this I will need to access my biodata files, hopefully tomorrow.
CUL(L)MER: N, E + SE London 19 cent, E Kent pre 1830, New York post 1850, Vic Australia post 1850
JOHNSON: (dockers/ropemakers) Tower Hamlets pre WWII
OSBORN:(dyers, scourers & gloove cleaners) Hoxton, Islington, Clerkenwell pre 1900
KEWLEY: Bradford 1830-1913, IoM pre 1850
CANNELL: IoM pre 1820
FABB: Cambridge
COLE(S): Warks/Oxon border pre 1830
RILEY: (RC) Bishopsgate area pre 1800
HALE: Brighton pre 1850
KIPPS: E Kent pre 1750
HARDING: MEOT post 1850, Bath Area pre 1850
PARTINGTON Lancs

Offline Aceh

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #192 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 11:32 GMT (UK) »
Morning all,

MARY CULLMER ca1829 –

Mary was apparently the eldest child of Edward Culmer, a carpenter born in Dover, Kent and his wife Annie Cole born in Warwickshire. In the 1841 census (HO107/701, bk 6, f 11,p 4) the family are found in Salmon Lane, Limehouse, where Mary is given as 12 years old and born outside of the county of Middlesex. No baptism of a Mary Cullmer in Dover around 1830 has been found.

According to the 1851 census (HO107/1488, f ?, p ?), a Mary Colmer aged 22 born in London, is shown as unmarried and working as a Parlour Maid, one of several servants to a family living at 7, Shalford Place, St Marylebone. This may be Mary Cullmer.

Beyond this point Mary has not been traced; several marriages have proved to be incorrect and no death of a Mary Cullmer has been found other than a vague possibility in Paddington in 1891 which is yet to be explored.

GEORGETTE SMITH (nee CULLMER ?) ca1859 – 19..

Georgette was born in 1859 according to the 1881 census (RG11/254 folio 59, page 5), where she is found living in the household of Issac William Osborn and his wife Rosina nee Cullmer, daughter of Alfred Cullmer and his wife Mary nee Hale. Georgette is recorded as being the sister in law of Isaac William Osborn. No birth certificate has been found for Georgette, but at the time it was not yet an absolute legal requirement. Neither has a baptism been found so far. She was initially believed to be the daughter of Alfred Cullmer, bag maker, and his wife Mary nee Hale, but this was not certain.

As Annie Susan Urwin, nee Cullmer, Alfred’s sister, had an illegitimate daughter named Georgette at almost the same time; these two Georgettes may be the same person.

Whatever her parentage, Georgette married Noble Edwin Smith, a carpenter, at St John’s, Chelsea, on 24/6/1888, shortly before Alfred Cullmer’s death. There appears to be an error on the marriage certificate in that her father is recorded as William Cullmer, a bag handle maker, not Alfred Cullmer. Yet no such William Cullmer is known to have been so employed. However, as no baptism has been found for Alfred it is possible that William was his 2nd forename, as his grandfather, a mariner at Dover, was named William.

According to the 1901 census Georgette and Noble had at least 5 children: Noble born ca 1889 in Islington; George born ca 1891 also in Islington; Georgette born ca 1893 in Barnsbury; Reuben born ca 1895 also in Barnsbury and Lucy born ca 1900 in Acton.

Now I'm sure we have dealt with Georgette before but no matter. Alfred Urwin's criminal activities are new to me and I will note the details.

I will look at earlier posts over the past few days and respond as I can.
CUL(L)MER: N, E + SE London 19 cent, E Kent pre 1830, New York post 1850, Vic Australia post 1850
JOHNSON: (dockers/ropemakers) Tower Hamlets pre WWII
OSBORN:(dyers, scourers & gloove cleaners) Hoxton, Islington, Clerkenwell pre 1900
KEWLEY: Bradford 1830-1913, IoM pre 1850
CANNELL: IoM pre 1820
FABB: Cambridge
COLE(S): Warks/Oxon border pre 1830
RILEY: (RC) Bishopsgate area pre 1800
HALE: Brighton pre 1850
KIPPS: E Kent pre 1750
HARDING: MEOT post 1850, Bath Area pre 1850
PARTINGTON Lancs


Offline Aceh

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #193 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 12:17 GMT (UK) »
Back again after a stiff coffee!

Using the GRO birth index to look at MMN,

Rosina Culmer bn J qtr 1852 Shoreditch has MMN as "-"
Rosina Culmer bn M qtr 1858 St Lukes has MMN as Hale
Rosina Urwin bn J qtr 1866 St Lukes has MMN as Cullmer

(There is a point to this, because I'm trying to get to the bottom of who belongs to who!)


I agree with the last 2 Rosinas but cannot find the first one, at least not in 1852. There is a Rosina Sarah Cullmer, daughter of George Isaac Culmer (elder brother of Alfred and who decamped to Brooklyn USA with Charlotte Toms sometime in 1853) and his lawful wife Sarah nee Smith formaly Gill, but this birth was 10 Jan 1854. Sarah, the deserted wife, later took up with William Whitehead.
CUL(L)MER: N, E + SE London 19 cent, E Kent pre 1830, New York post 1850, Vic Australia post 1850
JOHNSON: (dockers/ropemakers) Tower Hamlets pre WWII
OSBORN:(dyers, scourers & gloove cleaners) Hoxton, Islington, Clerkenwell pre 1900
KEWLEY: Bradford 1830-1913, IoM pre 1850
CANNELL: IoM pre 1820
FABB: Cambridge
COLE(S): Warks/Oxon border pre 1830
RILEY: (RC) Bishopsgate area pre 1800
HALE: Brighton pre 1850
KIPPS: E Kent pre 1750
HARDING: MEOT post 1850, Bath Area pre 1850
PARTINGTON Lancs

Offline Spidermonkey

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #194 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 13:23 GMT (UK) »
Back again after a stiff coffee!

Using the GRO birth index to look at MMN,

Rosina Culmer bn J qtr 1852 Shoreditch has MMN as "-"
Rosina Culmer bn M qtr 1858 St Lukes has MMN as Hale
Rosina Urwin bn J qtr 1866 St Lukes has MMN as Cullmer

(There is a point to this, because I'm trying to get to the bottom of who belongs to who!)


I agree with the last 2 Rosinas but cannot find the first one, at least not in 1852. There is a Rosina Sarah Cullmer, daughter of George Isaac Culmer (elder brother of Alfred and who decamped to Brooklyn USA with Charlotte Toms sometime in 1853) and his lawful wife Sarah nee Smith formaly Gill, but this birth was 10 Jan 1854. Sarah, the deserted wife, later took up with William Whitehead.

The first one has a strong possibility that it was an illegitimate birth - I believe the "-" is used by the GRO to indicate that the baby has the same name as the MMN.

oooooh speculation time - maybe 1852 Rosina belongs to the missing Mary Cullmer.........

Offline Aceh

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #195 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 15:04 GMT (UK) »
Ah, Spidermonkey, so you are thinking that Rosina born 1852 may be the illigitimate daughter of Mary Colmer the Housemaid presumed elder sister of George Isaac, Annie Susan and Alfred. Um, but if this was the case then Mary would have been out on her ear from the posh house in Marylebone pdq and probably minus a reference. This would not be entirely unknown and possibly explain why I wasn't able to find a marriage for her when I was looking some years ago. In many cases low stutus domestic servants were not allowed to marry if they wished to continue employment by the posh family. Many a servant in a delicate condition ended up in the workhouse. I'm intrigued by all these Culmers naming daughters Rosina as I know of no precedence for the name in the Culmer family.
Another alternative mother may have been Sarah, the wife of George Isaac Culmer, but the child would have to have died in infancy and a 2nd child then being named Rosina in 1854. Any appropriate infancy deaths out there?
CUL(L)MER: N, E + SE London 19 cent, E Kent pre 1830, New York post 1850, Vic Australia post 1850
JOHNSON: (dockers/ropemakers) Tower Hamlets pre WWII
OSBORN:(dyers, scourers & gloove cleaners) Hoxton, Islington, Clerkenwell pre 1900
KEWLEY: Bradford 1830-1913, IoM pre 1850
CANNELL: IoM pre 1820
FABB: Cambridge
COLE(S): Warks/Oxon border pre 1830
RILEY: (RC) Bishopsgate area pre 1800
HALE: Brighton pre 1850
KIPPS: E Kent pre 1750
HARDING: MEOT post 1850, Bath Area pre 1850
PARTINGTON Lancs

Offline Spidermonkey

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #196 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 15:45 GMT (UK) »
Will have a look for a death for Rosina 1852.  There is another Rosina Cullmer bn in 1852 in Holborn (Mar qtr 1b 419)

Offline Spidermonkey

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Re: Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9
« Reply #197 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 15:52 GMT (UK) »
Using freebmd and doing a search for death/Rosina/london and middlesex/1852-1861 there were no CULMER/CULLMER/Any other possible variant.

She may, of course, have died outside London or Middlesex so I'll do a search for
death/Rosina/C?l*mer/1852-1861

ETA: nope, no deaths.   ::)