Toni*’s OH Sc Hunt part 9

[toni*]

It appears George Culmer did  not like Warren (his quote step father unquote) and was moaning about the delay in getting the funds through but Ellen wasn’t going to be pushed around so instead of giving the money to George she went on a trip to Paris!
Are there records of journeys to Paris ?
How would she have gotten there? train to Dover then boat to Calais and train to Paris ?

[janan]

Dover to Calais or Newhaven to Dieppe would seem most likely routes to me but I've no idea whether passenger lists survive - when would this have been? Would she have been travelling as Ellen Ingram anyway

Re your earlier post about the court case, I cannot work out why Mrs Culmer gets a mention at all, very strange!!

Jan

[toni*]

i think if this Mrs Culmer is connected it would be Annie Gardener Coles if anyone ?
this is 1844

When Ellen went to Paris this would be 1890 / 1891 definitley after the death of Alfred in i think (from memory) 1888
i don't know if she went alone or took Warren with her

We know that Warren Ingram was 'tried' for mansluaghter 23 June 1890 but the Bill was ignored- presumably due to lack of evidence.

I wonder if there is a way to find out who was apparently manslaughtered !

or did we check this already - we may have done and i vaugely rememebr it was an accident with the omnibus he was driving knocked down and killed someone or 2 people who stepped out in the road in front of him. - ah yes its all coming back to me now!

ignore that last bit then !

PS there is no reason to suggest she didnt use the name Ellen Ingram when she went to Paris

[toni*]

i keep having little bursts at making sense of this - it does all make sense in my head but putting it on paper is proving difficult

Alfred Urwin - Annie Susan husband
was in Lewes Prison in 1861

do we know / can we find out  why ?

Lewes Prison was only built in 1853

[Spidermonkey]

There is a report in the Morning Post of 7 Oct 1859 of 3 "determined-looking thieves" namely Thomas Mahoney, Alfred Irwin and John Day alias Driscoll being sent before a judge accused of stealing 3 watches from passengers at Crystal Palace railway station.  They are remanded for a week, so it is unlikely that it was for this offence that Alfred Irwin/Urwin was in prison but it might indicate that his name was known!

Incidentally, it was alleged that John Day/Driscoll "was a member of a gang of the most desparate thieves in the metropolis, known as the "Field-Lane gang""

[Spidermonkey]

Actually, looking at the criminal registers on ancestry, it looks as the 3 of them were later sentenced to 12 calender months of hard labour so perhaps this was the reason he was in prison 

[toni*]

thanks Spidermonkey - it doesnt look as if he was tried at the Old Bailey at least i couldnt spot him

[toni*]

George Culmer wasn't very nice he threatened to 'do for his mother' with a hammer 4 days after she went off to Paris

Frederick Whitehead was ALfred Culmers nephew well step nephew

[Aceh]

Morning all & happy new Year!

1844, that's a bit early.

To be "one of ours" the only Mrs Culmer who would qualify would be Alfred's presumed mother, Annie Culmer, nee Cole, born 24 December 1805 and baptised Bodicote Oxfordshire on 5 January 1806. It is believed that she was the bride of Edward Cullmer, carpenter, baptised St Mary the Virgin, Dover, Kent on 19 September 1810, at his marriage at All Souls Langham Place, Marylebone on 19 April 1830.

The first sighting of this couple post marriage is the 1841 census (HO107/701, Book 6, page11) at Salmon's Lane, Limehouse. Four children, Mary aged 12, George [Isaac] aged 9, [Annie] Susan aged 8 and Alfred aged 6, all born outside the county of Middlesex, were also included.

Edward Cullmer, father of Alfred and his siblings, died at "The Tap, Bull & Mouth Street, London" of "Typhus Fever 14 days Certified" on 6 March 1849. His wife Annie, her daughter Annie Susan and her unmarried [half] sister Lucy Cole, all recorded as Needlewomen, are found living together at Bartholomew Close, City of London, in the 1851 census ( HO107/1526, folio 26, page 44). At this time Annie's son George Isaac is found lodging close by and Alfred is a Draper's assistant in Dover. Elder daughter Mary is believed to have been in service in Marylebone.

So, this is the background of "our Mrs Culmer". In 1844 Annie is married with 4 children, the eldest, Mary, being around 15 and our Alfred being around 9 years old. I tried yesterday to get into the Old Bailey site but without success.

If this is a sighting of Annie Cullmer then this would be new information for me. However, with the address being in Islington, my gut feeling is that this may be one of the brush maker Culmers but I will check this out and report back.
Does the witness Mrs Culmer give her husband's occupation to the court? if so this would likely settle the matter.