William GREEN

[David Burrows]

I am trying to trace an ancestor, William Green, he has a very common name and I know little about him so any assistance would be appreciated.

This is the story that I know of him.

William married Emma Cribbs, nee Baker, on the 23rd Apr 1853 at St Saviors, Gunning parish in NSW under license. They are both listed as Widows, although I know her first husband, Lewis Cribbs, was still alive and as far as I am aware there was no divorce recorded for them, of William Green's first marriage I don't know.

William and Emma had 2 children according to her, Emma's, death certificate.
The first child Mary Ann Baker is listed in the St Clements C of E, Yass Baptismal Register as "born 30 May 1850, mother Emma Baker, servant, Gunning". Secondly "Sarah Green born 8 Dec 1851, parents William and Emma Green, Gunning".

Emma's first marriage to Lewis Cribbs was 22 Jan 1849 in Goulburn it didn't last very long in fact an article appeared in the Goulburn Herald on the 31 Mar 1849 "cautioning all persons from harbouring my wife, Emma Cribbs, (late Baker) or giving her any credit....." it went on to say she was "cohabiting with a man known as Flash Jacob...." signed by Lewis Cribbs. So I have doubts as to wether the first child was actually fathered by William Green, and it appears both children were born out of wedlock.


The next thing I know of William is that he is also placing cautions (x2) in the Goulburn Herald, dated 13 Jun and 22 Dec 1854, not holding responsibility for any debts she, Emma Green, may incur.

William Green is listed on the Electoral Roll 1865-66 and 1875 as a leaseholder, Fish River (Gunning area). He does not appear on the roll after 1875.

On his daughter Sarah's death certificate in 1936, his profession is listed as Accountant.

I have no further information about his past or life after Emma Baker she went on to marry again and appears to have settled down.

So William died some time after 1875, I don't know where he was born, or when he arrived in the country, I have no age for him at any stage.

Please help

burrod1

[Neil Todd]

Hi Burrod 1, there is a remote possibility that your William is William R Green married firstly to a Sarah nee (??)

There is a death recorded to This (Maybe) Green and three young children to William and Sarah.
From NSW BDM
V1846418 31A/1846  GREEN  SYDNEY M  WILLIAM R  SARAH
V18412116 25A/1841  GREEN  JAMES S  WILLIAM R  SARAH
V1843431 27A/1843  GREEN  JOHN T  WILLIAM R  SARAH 
Sarah's Death
V1848143 33B/1848  GREEN  SARAH  AGE 49 
His being a widower with 3 children may have been the impetus to remarry

Neil

[majm]

Hi there,

I can confirm that on the NSW ER 1870, YASS PLAINS, that there's William Green, leaseholder, Fish River.  but he is not listed in the NSW ER 1878 YASS PLAINS.

This link should help explain why no divorce, NSW did not have divorce laws until 1873. The space on the forms for the clergy to record the status of either parties was actually quite a small space, and there were just the two options Spinster/Bachelor or Widow.  The clergy would have heard the lengthy explanations from Emma, and thus recorded her surname as CRIBB, and her nee name.  To me, this is indicating that at that point in time, Emma was marrying William with the understanding that her earlier marriage to Lewis was completely over.  

I am sure you appreciate that it is very unlikely, given that she offered the clergy her former husband's surname as well as her nee name, that she was deliberately setting herself up to be charged with the serious civil crime of bigamy.  Nor do I believe the clergy would have simply recorded either her or her then prospective husband's status as "widow" without at least having some direction from the Bishop regarding the then meaning of the status "widow".   It is my understanding that in that era, at least in the colonies, that the word "widow" when applied to females, indicated a female with children and without a husband to support her and the children.  I understand the meaning contracted to mean a female whose formal marriage was ended upon the proven death of her lawful spouse, AFTER the death of Queen Victoria's husband.

http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html

As William was a leaseholder at Fish River, have you searched for the details of that lease?   When did it commence, were there details of earlier leaseholders at that property etc.  

Cheers,  JM

[David Burrows]

Where would I find details of the lease, I haven't looked for these before, also what should I expect to find on the lease papers.

burrod1

[majm]

Hi

NSW Resources Board has many live links

NSW SRO should give indexes for CSLand & Depasturing Licences etc

NSW Land Office is there too

Lease should define the land occupied and terms eg how much to bee cleared ... AND often has lessee signature and or place of birth a/or arrival ship etc.

An UNfriendly to operate site is the Parish maps site (Lands Office) but it gives title deed clues too.    When I am back at my puter I will load the live links here but at minute I am wifi on e reader... Could be several hours or even tomorrow before tthat happens

Cheeers clunky JM

[David Burrows]

I look forward to your reply, also if he was a leaseholder could he have been an ex-convict or were ex-convicts not entitled to lease land. I presume the land was leased from the government (crown land).

I have had a quick look at SRO indexes for CSLand (they only start after WWI) and Depasturing Licences (they appear to go no later than 1851), so I have a big gap in the time period that I need to find my William Green.
burrod1

[majm]

Hi

Still not near my puter ... sorry

The CSLand indexes go back to first settlement and right through 19th century ... Yes you are spot on .. leasing 'Crown Land'  ..... The CSLand indexes can be tricky to follow .. Yes land grants were available to all eg retired or half pay soldiers  former convicts 'came free' people .. males and females  It was very egalitarian 

Sorry for the delay with those live links ... Fingers crossed that there will be other RChatters reading this post who will load these shortly .. If so I thank them in advance 

Hi everyone Could one RChatter please P L E A S E help burrod1 and load the live link to NSW SRO  Keyword search option   Thanks

Cheers Clunky JM

[majm]

Hi there,

On my Puter now 

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx 
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=14 "Colonial Secretary's Letters relating to Land
This index is part of the first stage in a long-term project to ensure the preservation and accessibility of the Colonial Secretary's papers, 1826-56."


This next link is the "UNfriendly" one, it is just a tad difficult to scroll through the maps once you have located which one to search through.
http://parishmaps.lands.nsw.gov.au/pmap.html    (Try under YASS)

Cheers,  JM

[debandgreg]

Hi Burrod1

I'm actually descended from Emma Baker and her third husband George Reynolds.

I'm afraid I can't really help you with any new information about your William Green, but I'm wondering if you could kindly give me more information about Emma? The newspaper notices you refer to sound very intriguing. Do you know where I'd be able to get access to the Goulburn Herald?

Regards
Deb