Thomas HOWELL and Margaret WALLACE, Pt. Sorell, Tasmania

[999WOODBURN]

Hello Everyone,

This forum has been so helpful to me on another search, that I thought I would prevail to try and sort out another unknown in my wife's ancestral chart.

Wenydy's great grandmother was Jemima Howell, born in 1874 in Port Sorell, Tasmania (Tas. Reg. 1515). Jemima parents were shown as Thomas Howell and Margaret Wallace.

I am having a good deal of difficulty in tracking the origins of Thomas Howell and Margaret Wallace through the index records available on Ancestry.com.

I believe Thomas Howell's parents could have been Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Newport. Extensive information is contained on the attached sheets, but there are many questions. Not sure at all about Margaret Wallace.

It seems there could be a good deal of confusion about Sorell, near Hobart and Port Sorell on Tasmania's north coast near Devonport.

Has anyone else done any research on these people?

Brendan

[gennig]

Hi Brendan

Don't know if you have the following

Margaret WALLACE married John GLEVES (GLEAVES or GLEEVES) Hobart 16 Oct 1854 772/1854 RGd 37
She was 21 he was 38
Children:=
Mary Ann born Spring Bay 9/11/1855 351/1856 Rgd 33
Elizabeth born Spring Bay 17/2/1858 1982/1858 Rgd 33
John born Spring Bay 6/6/1860 2159/1860 Rgd 33
James born Spring Bay 31/8/1862 1624/1862 Rgd 33
Philip born Spring Bay 30/11/1864 1774/1864 Rgd 33

William Thomas HOWELL born Port Sorell 3/10/1872 1464/1872 Rgd 33
Parents listed as Thomas HOWELL & Margaret GLEAVES

On the Index to Departures 1817 to 1867 (Archives of Tasmania)
List 2 Thomas'
Thomas Howell (born in the Tasmania) left for Melbourne from Launceston 28th April 1852 on board "Swan"
Thomas Howell left for New Zealand fron Launceston 29th Mary 1841 on board "Ullswater"


Regards


Genni

[gennig]

Also found in the 'Convicts Application for permission to marry 1829-1857'

Gleves John (free) Margaret Wallace ('Blackfriar') 8/9/1854 Con52/1/7 P154

Cheers

[Dundee]

When Jemima was attempting to recover money from her brothers in 1916, they are named as Henry (Harry) and William.  These two may be Thomas's sons by his first wife Elizabeth and second "wife" (I cannot see a marriage) Margaret WALLACE/GLEAVES.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/64787104?searchTerm=lapham%20howell&searchLimits=l-decade=191|||l-year=1916

Margaret's conduct record shows that she married Brian (Bryan) CASSIDY in 1852, then John GLE(A)VES in 1854.
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON41-1-30,269,255,L,80
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=5

I cannot see a registration for the CASSIDY child born in 1853.

Not sure what happened to Bryan CASSIDY - no death, freedom or absconding noted.
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON33-1-93,303,65,L,80

Debra 

[999WOODBURN]

Thanks to all who have replied.

I think we are getting somewhere.

Summarizing what I think may have happened is this:

Thomas Howell (son of Thomas Howell & Elizabeth Newport) married Elizabeth Smith on 20 May 1849 in Spring Bay (Tas 701). They had 7 children shown thus:
Male b. 18 Jan 1850 Brighton (Tas 870)
Male b. 7 Feb 1852 Spring Bay (Tas 519)
Elizabeth b 13 Oct 1853 Spring Bay (Tas 1023)
John b 23 Sep 1855 Spring Bay (Tas 1474)
Henry b 21 Mar 1858 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1923)
Charles b 21 Oct 1859 Spring Bay (Tas 2115)
Alice Howell b 9 Jan 1864 Spring Bay (Tas 1756)

John Gleaves married Margaret Wallace on 16 Oct 1854 in Hobart (Tas 772) They had 5 children shown thus:
Mary Ann b. 9 Nov 1855 Spring Bay (Tas 351) - possibly? (surname shown as Gleeson)
Elizabeth b. 17 Feb 1858 Spring Bay (Tas 1982)
John b. 6 Jun 1860 Spring Bay (Tas 2159)
James b. 31 Aug 1862 Spring Bay (Tas 1624)
Philip b. 30 Nov 1864 Spring Bay (Tas 1774)

Thomas Howell "married" Margaret Gleaves (nee Wallace) around 1865-66 - no record. They had 5 children shown thus:
Edward b. 27 Nov 1867 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1355)
Emma b. 8 Jun 1870 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1403)
William Thomas b. 3 Oct 1872 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1464) - mother's name Margaret Gleaves
Jemima Susan b. 5 Oct 1874 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1515)
Edwin James b. 2 Nov 1876 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1513)

There are several assumptions needed and unanswered questions in relation to the above scenario. Firstly what happened to Elizabeth Howell (nee Smith) and John Gleaves? The dates all fit and it seems likely that Margaret Wallace, wife of John Gleaves, and "wife" of Thomas Howell could be the same person. The mother's name is even shown as Margaret Gleaves on the birth record for William Thomas Howell. Additionally, as pointed out in a previous post, Jemima Lapham (nee Howell) sought to recover money from brother William and Henry Howell. This would link the two families.
Without going into it here, poor Jemima had a tragic life.

What I can't be sure about is that the Thomas Howell mentioned is indeed the son of Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Newport. Certainly all 5 of Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Newport's children are shown as registered at Pt. Sorell between 1825 and 1836.

What is the link between Spring Bay and Port Sorell? They are a good distance apart for those days. Curiously one of Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Smith's 7 children is shown registered at Pt. Sorell, with all the rest at or around Spring Bay.

At this stage, I haven't actually got an official copy of Jemima Howell's birth details. Can anyone tell me if this will give me further information - eg. her parent's ages?

There must be some more evidence out there somewhere!!

Sorry about such a long post, but thanks again to all who have taken an interest to date.

Brendan

[johngirl]

Hi Brendan,

according to the Tasmanian Pioneer Index Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Newports children were registered at Sorell not Port Sorell.
Sorell is down the bottom end of Tassie and Port Sorell up the top end of Tassie.
Spring Bay is now called Triabunna I think.
Six of the children born to Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Smith were registered at Spring Bay and the seventh at Sorell.The Male child born 18th Janurary 1850 was registered at Spring bay not Brighton.

There isn`t very much information on a birth certificate in 1874 from Tasmania

This link will tell you whats on a birth certificate for that era.

http://www.justice.tas.gov.au/bdm/family_history/researching_family_trees

 Johngirl

[999WOODBURN]

Hmmm.....

So back to the drawing board then.

I am not an experienced genealogist so I will take all the advice I can get. I have been chasing up ancestral records for a couple of years now so I have found out how confusing and difficult it can be.

Most recently I have been accessing the Ancestry.com records for a lot of my information and it does seem a little weird that these records could be so fundamentally at odds with the Tasmanian Pioneer Index records. The Ancestry.com Australian BDM database, which I believe is held in the US somewhere, definitely shows Pt. Sorell for all the Howell / Newport children. In each case the registration number is quoted, so I thought I was on fairly safe ground.

Does anyone know how much faith can be put in any of these records?

Is there any way, other than ordering copies of certificates which can become quite expensive, of finding out what I can trust. Even with official certificates, I have learned that some of these are transcripts, so may not be 100% reliable.

Surely at some stage, someone must have sighted original records in putting together these index databases. I can understand how difficult it must be to interpret individual records, so there will be lots of discrepancies, but systematically interpreting Sorell for Port Sorell or vice versa seems difficult to understand.

Does this sort of thing crop up often?

Interested in what others think.

Brendan

[johngirl]

Hi Brendan,

You can view pre 1900`s certificates for Tasmania on microfilm at most major Libraries in Australia,this costs nothing unless you want a copy of it which usually only costs about twenty or thirty cents or less which the Library  charge for the bit of paper and ink.

The Tasmanian Pioneer Index does have some errors but it seems that A***try has made quite a few with our Tasmanian records.Not sure why they have transcribed the registration place wrongly.I don`t use A***try.com,I mainly use the Tasmanian Pioneer Indexes then check the microfilm records to see what information is on the actual record.

I`m not a experienced Geneaolgist either but I`m sure the microfilmed certificates are from the original records but if I`m wrong hopefully someone will correct me.

 Johngirl

[999WOODBURN]

Thanks for that advice.

We live in country WA, so I would probably need to make a trip to Perth to do as you suggest.

I will make some enquiries to see what's is available - having come this far, I feel I need to get to the bottom of the matter. It is really just about the only unresolved issue in putting together my wife's ancestral chart right back to the point where the individuals actually emigrated to Australia.

Brendan