**COMPLETED** Bertha GLOVER born 1833 Wittersham, Kent arrived Sydney 1837

[muss]

Hi

Some information from- On Gunnary Creek - On post 3

Muss

[Caryn_1]

Hi All

From the Otago Witness dated July 31 1852

Sailed. July 24, the Otago, 70 tons, Stevens, master, for Sydney. Passengers-J. McHugh, J. Dobbs. W. Matheson, A. Jose, J. Henry, Mr and Mrs M'Niel and child. Miss J. Brown, Mr and Mrs Millar and 2 children, Mr and Mrs Glover and 9 children, D. Ferguson, J. Matthew, T. Glen, J. Kirkland.

What I find interesting from the above passenger listing, that there is no Mrs Tandy listed. No ships leaving in 1852 (according to the Otago Witness) have a Mrs Tandy on board or anyone with the surname Gorham (in case Bertha reverted to that name for some reason). Given that in 1852, she would have been 19 years old and married, surely she wouldn’t have been listed as one of the ‘children’ returning in 1852? Would she?

Re: Henry Glover – born 3 December 1838 and baptised 27 January 1839. James Gorham was Amelia’s brother. James and his wife Jane had their daughter Maria baptised the same day as young Henry. A double christening.

Amelia’s mother and a quite number of the Gorham family came to Australia. Amelia’s mother herself came to Australia after remarrying and is buried in South Australia. I have quite a lot of information on the Gorham line. As Merlin has suggested, there is quite a lot of information on the Gorham’s available.

Thanks for the pointer to that book too Merlin. I think I might just invest in that! It should be a very interesting read. And Merlin has offered me additional information on the Gorham’s.

As for the elusive Mr Tandy – subject to the arrival of the certificates from NZ – it may well now be the son who has become the elusive Mr Tandy...

Cheers
Caryn

[muss]

Hi

If the widow was under 21 years of age  was she then under the care of her father ?


Just asking I do not know the answer


Muss

[Caryn_1]

Hi All

Well, some certificates have arrived, however, not the certificates from NZ to solve the mystery of the elusive Mr Tandy as yet.

Amelia Glover's certificate is a certificate of burial, and so doesn't contain any information about her parents or children. Only the date of death, burial, where the ceremony was performed ( Parish of St Lawrence, Sydney, County of Cumberland) and that the 'Quality of Profession' was 'Emigrant Husband Coachman'. I've not heard of that as a profession for a woman before?

Theodore Glover's death certificate - death 6 August 1883 (the Theodore buried in Walgett cemetery and whom I had always attributed as a son of George and Amelia) - turns out to be one of the sons of George and Harriet. Born in about 1847/8 he died from acute bronchitis. It states on the certificate that he was born in New Zealand, and has been in NSW for 30 years prior to his death. Also says that his father George Glover was 'settler - Otago' and mother was 'Amelia Harriet Grace Champion'.

George Glover's death certificate states (and now finally it clarifies exactly how many children George and Harriet). In order of birth - Elizabeth, Emma Jane, Emily, Ambrose, Theodore, Amelia and Theophilus.

This reconciles then with the '9 children' they returned to Australia with in 1852. 7 children of their own, plus Bertha and George jnr from George's first marriage to Amelia Gorham. George's certificate also mentions living in NZ for 12 years, 19 years in NSW and burial at Morpeth.

George's death certificate mentions his first marriage to Amelia, however, her surname is incorrectly transcribed as Gordon. It only lists Bertha and George as children of that marriage. There is absolutely no mention of any other children whatsoever. What is also lists is two separate reference numbers that I am not able to determine:

84M K166/84 and 14363/83NEWC

I am assuming these should be found in the NSW BDM's, but I have so far been unable to find them (unless I'm looking in the wrong place.

So, until the NZ certificates arrive to provide a bit more info.

Cheers
Caryn

[majm]

Hi

I notice you have not mentioned Henry born 1838

JM

Hi All

Well, some certificates have arrived, however, not the certificates from NZ to solve the mystery of the elusive Mr Tandy as yet.

Amelia Glover's certificate is a certificate of burial, and so doesn't contain any information about her parents or children. Only the date of death, burial, where the ceremony was performed ( Parish of St Lawrence, Sydney, County of Cumberland) and that the 'Quality of Profession' was 'Emigrant Husband Coachman'. I've not heard of that as a profession for a woman before?

Theodore Glover's death certificate - death 6 August 1883 (the Theodore buried in Walgett cemetery and whom I had always attributed as a son of George and Amelia) - turns out to be one of the sons of George and Harriet. Born in about 1847/8 he died from acute bronchitis. It states on the certificate that he was born in New Zealand, and has been in NSW for 30 years prior to his death. Also says that his father George Glover was 'settler - Otago' and mother was 'Amelia Harriet Grace Champion'.

George Glover's death certificate states (and now finally it clarifies exactly how many children George and Harriet). In order of birth - Elizabeth, Emma Jane, Emily, Ambrose, Theodore, Amelia and Theophilus.

This reconciles then with the '9 children' they returned to Australia with in 1852. 7 children of their own, plus Bertha and George jnr from George's first marriage to Amelia Gorham. George's certificate also mentions living in NZ for 12 years, 19 years in NSW and burial at Morpeth.

George's death certificate mentions his first marriage to Amelia, however, her surname is incorrectly transcribed as Gordon. It only lists Bertha and George as children of that marriage. There is absolutely no mention of any other children whatsoever. What is also lists is two separate reference numbers that I am not able to determine:

84M K166/84 and 14363/83NEWC

I am assuming these should be found in the NSW BDM's, but I have so far been unable to find them (unless I'm looking in the wrong place.

So, until the NZ certificates arrive to provide a bit more info.

Cheers
Caryn

[muss]

hi

Just doing handstands  and getting mildly ( no very very) excited for you,  at least you know that the family WAS in New Zealand. 

This family has been very interesting to say the least, and maybe a few choice words along the way.

Muss

[Caryn_1]

Hi Muss

I'm getting rather excited to say the least myself! George's death certificate confirms they were most definitely in NZ, and your finding of Bertha's marriage to Thomas Tandy was just an absolute blinder to say the least! I'm so terribly greatful and I'm absolutely hanging for those certificates to arrive...

majm - I haven't mentioned Henry as George's death certificate only mentioned Bertha and George jnr as being the only 2 children of the marriage of the marriage between him and Amelia Gorham. And there was no mention of a Henry as being the son of him and Harriot. I'm going to have to do a bit more investigating of Henry to see if he truly belongs to George Glover and one of his wives.

This family's story has turned out to be something most unexpected!

Cheers all
Caryn

[majm]

Hi there,

As I understand it, currently this thread should be giving you confidence that there are NSW official records that show that Henry Glover, baptised 1839 at Christ Church St Lawrence, Sydney NSW was the son of Amelia (nee Gorham) and her husband George Glover. 

So, currently this thread should be giving you confidence that :

  Henry was the younger half brother to Bertha Gorham baptised 1833 and to George Gorham baptised 1836.  (Both in England).  
 
  Henry was the older half brother to Elizabeth, Emma Jane, Emily, Ambrose, Theodore, Amelia and Theophilus as their parents were Harriet Grace (nee Champion) and George Glover.   

If you are seeking to establish that Bertha Gorham and/or George Gorham are likely to be ex-nuptial children of George Glover you could check the English Parish Registers to see if the clergy made any mention of their reputed father, perhaps as a margin note.

Surely Henry Glover, baptised 1839 in Sydney NSW would be the Uncle of Thomas George TANDY whose birth is registered in NZ.

Kind thoughts,

JM

 

Hi Muss

I'm getting rather excited to say the least myself! George's death certificate confirms they were most definitely in NZ, and your finding of Bertha's marriage to Thomas Tandy was just an absolute blinder to say the least! I'm so terribly greatful and I'm absolutely hanging for those certificates to arrive...

majm - I haven't mentioned Henry as George's death certificate only mentioned Bertha and George jnr as being the only 2 children of the marriage of the marriage between him and Amelia Gorham. And there was no mention of a Henry as being the son of him and Harriot. I'm going to have to do a bit more investigating of Henry to see if he truly belongs to George Glover and one of his wives.

This family's story has turned out to be something most unexpected!

Cheers all
Caryn

[Caryn_1]

Hi

I'm absolutely confident that Henry is the younger brother of Bertha, and the child of George and Amelia. It's curious that only Bertha and George jnr are mentioned as being the only two children of the marriage to George and Amelia on George's death certificate.

Ambrose was the informant for George's death. Perhaps he didn't know Henry, or Henry had long since passed away. I don't know, however, Bertha and George were both in there 30's at the time George passed away, so it's curious that Henry wasn't mentioned on the certificate - even he had passed away.

Cheers
Caryn