**COMPLETED** Bertha GLOVER born 1833 Wittersham, Kent arrived Sydney 1837

[Caryn_1]

Hi everyone

Apologies, been unable to respond the last couple of days, work has taken over....Bertha was born 3 years before her parents were married not 3 years before they were born. I mistyped that sentence. As she was born out of wedlock she was born Bertha Gorham and was given the name of Glover after her parents were married.

You are quite correct also that the County of Cumberland did cover the area of Cabramatta. I had always assumed that it covered the Penrith area as that was where they spent most of their lives together. Thanks for that clarification.

The family arrived in Australia aboard the Augusta Jessie arriving on 11 October 1837 into Sydney.

I’ve also found a baptism record for brother Henry, but not for the younger brother Theodore.

After Stephen died, Bertha went to Morpeth to live with the daughter she had with Stephen. That daughter Jane Elizabeth King is my 2xtimes great grandmother. She was born in 1857 in Mulgoa (Bertha’s age is confirmed on my 2xtimes great grandmother’s birth certificate). Perhaps I should clarify my wording. Bertha and all of the children went to live in Morpeth and remained there for some years.

There was an elder brother Albert born in 1854 in Cabramatta and a younger brother Stephen born in 1860 in Mulgoa just 7 months before Stephen died.

To answer your questions re: the witnesses to Bertha’s and Stephen’s marriage, they were an Isaac Dawson of Denham Court (I believe he was around 13 years old at the time but can’t be sure) and a Catherine Hemming and Frank Blomfield.

Bertha was the informant for Stephen King’s death in 1860. I have a copy of that certificate and her former surname is clearly recorded as Tandy.

The Dr Edward Glover Tennant you mention is no relation that I’m aware of.

It is only the elusive Mr Tandy I am trying to trace to fill in the gaps in information I have in information relating to Bertha and her first marriage and to determine if she may have had family during that first marriage.

I have an incredible amount of information about Stephen and the children (and Stephen’s first wife and family whom he left behind in England), however, I know precious little about Bertha, other than being able to place her in certain areas at certain times, and I know nothing about her first husband except for a surname.

One of the next things on my agenda is to order Bertha’s death certificate to see what information is in there (but not that that is going to help solve the Tandy mystery). I agree also that not everything available is online in the NSW BDM and that I can see a trek to NSW somewhere in the future. I’ll certainly follow some of these leads.

I am most appreciative of your information and the efforts you have so clearly put into searching. Thank you so much.

Cheers
Caryn

[majm]

Hi there,

Most of the Penrith district IS within the County of Cumberland.  That part of Penrith's local government area that is to the west of the Nepean River is NOT.  Mulgoa is within the County of Cumberland.

"Cumberland County is a county in the State of New South Wales, Australia. Most of the Sydney metropolitan area is located within the County of Cumberland.
 
The County of Cumberland stretches from Broken Bay to the north, the Hawkesbury River to the north-west, the Nepean River to the west, the Cataract River to the south-west and the northern suburbs of Wollongong to the south. It includes the area of the Cumberland Plain."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland_County,_New_South_Wales

Re the Augusta Jessie,  the image of the passenger list for that voyage that I have seen shows George Glover, by name, and that he was a married man and two children came.  The names of his wife and the children are not on the list that I have.

Thanks for explaining that Bertha was born prior to the marriage of her mother.  Do you know that George was Bertha's father, or could it be that he was her step-father?

Re Stephen King's d.c., was Bertha the only one who was named as the informant?  And what is the exact wording re Bertha on that document?  Does it read for example, Bertha King, formerly Tandy, nee Glover?  Are you looking at a transcript or at the digitised image from the NSW BDM issued certificate?

I will try to follow up on the witnesses to Bertha's 1853 marriage.   Have you any information about them at present? 

Re Bertha's d.c., I am not sure why you would think that it would not help solve the Tandy mystery, as the d.c. should give you details of her marriages, (when, where, to whom) and the names/ages of the children of each marriage (and the gender of any deceased).  Of course the validity of that information does depend on the knowledge of the informant, which if a family member can be information given at a time of grief.   NSW d.c.s are usually quite informative, and they incorporate far more than say an English d.c. as they also include the equivalent of the burial order, so they include information provided by the informant, by the clergy and the funeral director, as well as the name of the doctor who last saw the deceased.   

At the NSW Resources Board here at RChat http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html you will find many links to lots of NSW resources.  Included at that thread are links re BDM certificates, Transcription Agents, and the link to what to expect to find on a NSW d.c.

As you have not yet ordered Bertha's d.c., may I suggest that the cheaper and quicker option (it can come by email as a pdf file attachment) would be a Transcription copy from one of the Official Transcription Agents.  They are all very efficient and well known and well respected.  The reference number is #12434, and this will help you to order.

Again, thanks for Unconfusing me. 

Cheers,  JM 

[majm]

Re Frank Blomfield

There was a Thomas Valentine BLOMFIELD associated with land that Richard BROOKS owned.  Richard Brooks was the chap who held most of the land in the Denham Court district.    TV Blomfield held a Depasturing Licence in respect of his holdings in the Monaroo district, while his residence was at Denham Court.  (NSW SR gives his licence as being issued 3 July 1838).  The NSW SR Index to Squatters and Graziers also places TVB down the South Coast, and into the Murray.   On that particular index there is F Blomfield, who in Jan 1845 held the Station, “Tangel” in the Gippsland and also in 1844 there was a J Blomfield at Tangel, associated with the same Charles James TYERS in the Gippsland and Port Phillip regions of what by the 1850s became the colony of Victoria.   These are seriously wealthy families.

Re Frank’s age in 1853.  I presume you are basing that on the baptism reference at NSW BDM, (1840, Vol 24A, line 1129).   Have you a copy of that entry?  Does it give his date of birth or just the date of his baptism?  I can see a Frank Allwan/Allman Blomfield was born 7 Jan 1840 and baptised 9 Feb 1840 at Denham Court, and his parents were Thomas Valentine and Christiana Jane Blomfield.    I can also see Thomas Valentine Blomfield married Christiana Jane BROOKS (perhaps related to Richard Brooks) 3 August 1820, St Phillips, C of E, Sydney.  I presume that is the same Richard Brooks of the shipping fame, owner or part owner of a number of the ships that transported convicts to NSW and VDL, and perhaps a descendant of the Brooks family who had been mariners for several generations, perhaps involved in trading from the West Coast of Africa to the then British Colonies of North America. 

I wonder if the elusive Mr Tandy went to the Gippsland, with those likely sons of TV Blomfield sometime after marrying Bertha and thus after the June 1851 separation of Vic from NSW thus forming a new colony, I wonder if Bertha may have considered that she was eligible to be considered as a widow (the spouse no longer residing in the colony of NSW etc) ?    I am not familiar with searching for BDM events in Victoria. 

Anyway, that’s a brief summary of what I found so far, online, at the free to search websites:

NSW SR, http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
NSW BDM http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm
familysearch https://www.familysearch.org/

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

the witnesses to Bertha’s and Stephen’s marriage, they were an Isaac Dawson of Denham Court (I believe he was around 13 years old at the time but can’t be sure) and a Catherine Hemming and Frank Blomfield.

Re Isaac Dawson of Denham Court. 

I doubt he was around 13 years old.  He arrived on the ship SARAH in 1829 under a Life Sentence, and had several T of Ls issued to him.  He received a CP in 1844 on the recommendation of John Duffas MA and TF Blomfield.  Perhaps the “F” was for Frank?  Perhaps the Blomfield family at Denham Court was quite a large extended family. 

It seems that in April 1835, Isaac Dawson was aged 27, when he sought and was granted permission to marry Isabella Barnes aged 16.    I can see the couple having children and their baptisms were at St Mary, Denham Court.  Perhaps Bertha or Mr Tandy were godparents? 

There’s a boy (Richard) born 8 Sept 1849 and baptised 20 Jan 1850 to Isaac and Isabella, so perhaps it would be worthwhile to check with the archivist for St Mary, re who were the sponsors for Isaac and Isabella’s children, particularly those born around the late 1840s and early 1850s.  Perhaps their daughter Jane, born 17 Dec 1852 and baptised 23 Jan 1853 at St Mary Denham Court would also help as you have Bertha’s daughter as Jane Elizabeth.  Hopefully there will be mention of at least Bertha or Mr Tandy or someone with the surname Glover as sponsors.

Do you already have confirmation of where George and Herriot were living at the time Bertha married Stephen King?

Cheers,  JM

[Caryn_1]

Hi

No, I have no confirmation as to where George was living after he remarried. I've not concentrated on that part of my research as yet.

I've been trying to find Bertha's Mr Tandy for a lot of years. An interesting suggestion re: Bertha's eligibility to call herself a widow, if the elusive Mr Tandy disappearance from the records might be something as easy as suggested.

Divorce wasn't available to the 'common folk' until the late 1800's because it was expensive, messy and considered scandalous for the time. Convicts were able to remarry (and were encouraged to do so) after they had been in Australia for 7 years as part of their rehabilitation, but only where their spouses had remained overseas. In Stephen King's case, the application he made in 1832 to have his family brought to Australia was turned down and he didn't marry Bertha until 1853, which was some 4 years after he received a full pardon.

If there was a law about convicts having to wait a minimum 7 years - was there a law in existence at the time about 'common folk' having wait if their spouses deserted them perhaps?

Re: The Blomfield family - Stephen King worked for a period of time both before and his marriage to Bertha as a clerk and a servant. I'm wondering based on your information now, if he actually worked for the Blomfield family.

Wow - thank you. You've given me some absolutely brilliant leads here. Thank you so much.

Cheers
Caryn

[majm]

Hi

No, I have no confirmation as to where George was living after he remarried. I've not concentrated on that part of my research as yet.

I've been trying to find Bertha's Mr Tandy for a lot of years. An interesting suggestion re: Bertha's eligibility to call herself a widow, if the elusive Mr Tandy disappearance from the records might be something as easy as suggested.

Divorce wasn't available to the 'common folk' until the late 1800's because it was expensive, messy and considered scandalous for the time. Convicts were able to remarry (and were encouraged to do so) after they had been in Australia for 7 years as part of their rehabilitation, but only where their spouses had remained overseas. In Stephen King's case, the application he made in 1832 to have his family brought to Australia was turned down and he didn't marry Bertha until 1853, which was some 4 years after he received a full pardon.

If there was a law about convicts having to wait a minimum 7 years - was there a law in existence at the time about 'common folk' having wait if their spouses deserted them perhaps?

Re: The Blomfield family - Stephen King worked for a period of time both before and his marriage to Bertha as a clerk and a servant. I'm wondering based on your information now, if he actually worked for the Blomfield family.

Wow - thank you. You've given me some absolutely brilliant leads here. Thank you so much.

Cheers
Caryn

Caryn, it was not just convicts who married in NSW while their former spouse was still living abroad.  The concept applied to all.  In fact there was NO option for Divorce in NSW at all.  It was not a matter of it being expensive, messy or scandalous.  It was simply not available.  English Laws were the foundation of NSW civil law, but back in 1828 Sir Francis Forbes ruled that unless the English law expressly nominated NSW then it was without formal effect in NSW.   Also I think that the word "widow" had a much more extensive meaning until the death of Queen Victoria's husband.  I think you will find until then, that the word widow simply indicated a woman with children but without a husband currently supporting her and the children.  In other words, it's meaning was not restricted to a woman or a man who could prove their spouse was deceased. 

Have you read the paper presented by the Professor of Law from Tasmania re Colonial Divorces?  Here is the link, while the paper is around ten years old, that should not be a barrier to the validity of the information in it, and it is fully referenced.  http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html

Governor Macquarie, the chap usually credited as the first of the governors to actively promote the option of marriage over co-habitation was not just referring to the convicts of NSW, nor just to any other members of the 'common folk', be they former convicts, who had become free settlers, or settlers who arrived free, or marines who settled, or foot soldiers who settled, but he was referring also to the gentry.   Divorce was simply not available in any court in New South Wales until the NSW Parliament's legislation was enacted, decades after Bertha Tandy married Stephen King.

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Hi there,

Some thoughts...

I have had a quick look at other threads you have posted on, and notice that you are based in Australia and also that the surname TANDY is part of your family tree via your grandparents, James Gibson and Louisa Jane TANDY who were married in 1910 at the All Saints Church in Croxley Green, UK.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,568493.0.html

May I ask some questions please about TANDY and NSW and your research in NSW for him.  You mention you have been searching for lots of years for him. 

  Do you think there may be some connection to your grandmother, Louisa Jane TANDY? Perhaps via earlier members of her paternal line? 
  Do you have any thoughts about who and/or when they may have migrated to or at least visited NS Wales?  What names or other clues has your long standing research for this elusive Mr Tandy turned up please.
  Where have you looked for him, and when were you looking ?   Is it possible that those places have added to their archival collections since your most recent contacts with them?

I am somewhat concerned about his actual surname, and I realise I have addressed this previously on this thread, but how certain are you that his surname was TANDY.   May I again pose the question .... Is it possible that it has been mis-transcribed.... the Old style capitalised letter “T” is also part quite a number of of the Old style capitalised letters and has often been confused with the capitalised Old Style “F”, “H”, “K”, “L”, “S” “X” .... The entry on the NSW BDM mc will be from the typed ECR certificate, but the 1860 d.c. should be a digitised image if it is the real deal certificate.  So it is possible that you have only that one example of the actual use of that surname in respect of Bertha.  As you have noticed, there’s not much around in the currently available NSW online indexes for any likely candidates for Bertha’s Mr Tandy.  So, perhaps he was Mr Handy/Hendry/Kandy/ Landy/Sandy/Thandy/ etc.... rather than Mr Tandy. 

I also continue to wonder if George Glover was actually Bertha’s father.  And that would be a further reason for seeking Bertha Coxhead’s d.c.   I must admit I am somewhat surprised that you have commented that you have been seeking this Mr Tandy for lots of years, yet you have not yet obtained that d.c.  However, I am sure each of us has our own ways of conducting our own family history researchings. 

On one of your other threads,  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,568306.0.html I can see where you have Bertha as born about Nov 1883 (edit JM typo, thanks Caryn for the heads up, it should read 1833 as per replies # 35 and #36), Wittersham Kent to Amelia Gorham and George Glover, and that an experienced RChatter has quite recently found her christening as 1 Dec 1833 under the name Bertha Gorham, with father un-named, and pointed to a possible link to a submitted tree. 
  Have you tried to contact that submitter with the view to seeing if they have further information about Bertha’s marriages, particularly the one for Mr Tandy?   
  Is it possible that at sometime after Bertha’s mum died, and as Bertha was growing up that she was returned to her UK Gorham family where she may have married that elusive Mr Tandy? 
  Have you researched her Gorham family at all?  Perhaps Mr Tandy was not ever in NS Wales, perhaps Bertha returned to NS Wales after he died/disappeared from a marriage with her in the UK.   Perhaps if she returned to the UK then in the UK she was known as Bertha Gorham...

Afterall, Bertha’s connection to George Glover may well be that of a step child, and thus her connection to his second wife may quite remote.  Perhaps as Bertha grew up, she became distant from George and Herriot.  I notice you have not located George and Herriot.  Also I notice that you have not actually confirmed that it was Bertha, and her younger bro who were on the Augusta Jessie... Are you sure that is the 'right' George Glover? It seems likely, but how sure are you?

Hope you don’t mind my expressing these thoughts, and that you are willing to share your thoughts in return.

Cheers,  JM 

[majm]

Hi there,

Some further thoughts... (I am rather NSW centric, so I am leaving the online searchings for any Tandy possibilities outside of NSW well alone for you or others to search).

  Do you have James King’s b.c. (1860, NSW BDM ref #10974), and if so, how is Bertha notated on that please, any mention of Tandy on that?...

  Is the lass, Sarah B KING,a sibling for your Jane Elizabeth? 
Sarah was born 1869, registered at Morpeth,  father’s given name not displayed at NSW BDM online index, but with mother’s given name displayed as Bertha.   I think that by 1869 the NSW BDM records should display quite a bit of information about Bertha, and hopefully that bc will list her older siblings, and perhaps there may be some siblings who could be from Bertha’s earlier marriages.  Perhaps one would be Madeline, born 1863, registered in Sydney, #1077.  Perhaps there mention of Bertha’s earlier marriages on that b.c. or at least on the registration of Madeline’s infant death in that same year at Glebe  (#1898).   
   Why was Bertha at Glebe in 1863, I thought you mentioned they went from Mulgoa to Morpeth, I didn’t realise they went to Glebe after Mulgoa and before Morpeth .... 
  The Sands Directory for 1867 does have a  George GLOVER in Glebe St, Glebe,  so  is there any connection with that place and Bertha's  death some 50 years later, also at Glebe?   

I can see Charles Coxhead at Morpeth, circa 1875, and alas, no mention of Tandy or Gorham or Glover or Blomfield, or Dawson or Hemmings  there.   However, I can see Albert and John KING, both farmers at Narrowgut.  Perhaps by looking around Morpeth I am looking where you have already looked. 

I notice that on several submitted trees on a commercial website, that the Stephen King who died in 1870, son of William and Sarah and whose death was registered in the Windsor district of NSW, is given for Bertha Glover’s husband.  Have you that d.c. to help eliminate him from your research? (#6354)  Those trees have Anne Pitman as his first wife, and of course, submitted trees are to be treated with extreme caution until validated with official records.

  I realise I have asked this question previously, but who was the George GLOVER who in 1859 married Isabella KNOTT and that marriage was registered at Penrith?  Was he connected to Bertha? #  2734


Fingers crossed your research will have already addressed these points.

Cheers,  JM

[Caryn_1]

Hi

Just quickly - I can address a couple issues - if I have mistakenly typed Bertha's birthdate as 1883 instead 1833, that is clearly an error. She was born 1833.

The Stephen King who died in 1870 in Windsor with parents William and Sarah was married to a Sarah Puttock. That Stephen was a well known timber cutter in North NSW and his descendants live in the Byron Bay area. If this Stephen has erroneously been linked to my 3xgreat grandmother, I'm afraid that is incorrect. It is an entirely different Stephen who arrived in Australia in 1829.

As for the Tandy link to my grandmother - it is known that none of my grandmother's family ever migrated to Australia. It is possible that there may well be a very distant link, however, none that I have ever found.

Will need to investigate the other questions as I get time. Thanks for the 'food for thought'. Unfortunately for now, back to the Friday grindstone.

Cheers
Caryn