**COMPLETED** Bertha GLOVER born 1833 Wittersham, Kent arrived Sydney 1837

[muss]

Hi

Question  to immigrate to Australia did you not have bap cert or letter  from the
parish/minister to prove who you were ?, if this is the case Bertha's name would have been Gorham.

Muss

[majm]

May I gently nb that Bertha did not marry George and that Bertha was not the mother of any children in 1837 

Kind Thoughts  JM

Hi All

The NZ BDM’s allows a search for birth’s from 1840 onwards, so any children born to Herriot/Harriot and George Glover, I would have thought should appear if they were registered, yet none seem to appear. Seems the NZ BDM’s are as frustrating to search as our own.

I’m curious as to why, if Thomas George Tandy is Bertha’s son; his birth is in the registers and not that of a daughter, if Mary Ann is a potential daughter. I’ve ordered both this birth certificate and the NZ marriage certificate of Bertha and Thomas Tandy – so hang on to your hats! No idea how long they will take to arrive though.

It’s quite feasible as majm suggests that Herriot/Harriot and George looked after the children when they returned to Australia, when Bertha married Stephen King. 

However, if we look at Bertha having her daughter between the years of 1848-1851 (as a guide – in 1848 Bertha would have been 15 years old) – this would indicate that Mary Ann was very young when she married in 1859?? Not sure about this.

The article majm referred to from the Evening Post also referred to Mary Ann as the ‘half caste daughter of a Swede named Thomas Tandy’.  A different Thomas Tandy perhaps? Or maybe the same Thomas Tandy but a different mother perhaps? And I suspect this is where that earlier marriage to Maria Manaha might come in. I suspect this might be Mary Ann’s mother rather than Bertha?

Then there is the issue of what happened to Thomas George Tandy and where he went? The Thomas Tandy recorded as dying in 1862 – if this is the same Thomas Tandy – why would he be recorded as an infant? He would have been 12 years old in 1862. A different Thomas Tandy perhaps? George and Harriot were known to be in Morpeth around this time.

If that is the entire Glover family returning in August 1852 that would terrific (interesting it says 9 children because by 1855 they have 6 children – accounting for young Theo’s death of course), however, I have no idea who the children of George and Harriot all are as I don’t seem to be able to find out there names. Emily I know due the details of the court case being recorded. Emma – majm has found and that was a terrific find. And Theophilus was another great find too – well done. The NSW BDM doesn’t record the parent’s names sadly for Theo's death.

The Emma Jane Glover born 1842 who married Alexander John Kemp Picard (born in Scotland) is the daughter of George Glover and Harriet Grace Champion. She had 4 sons and 5 daughters with him. This is the Emma majma has found.

Re: the question, how sure am I that it was George, Bertha and 2 children on board the Augusta Jessie? I could pose exactly the same question? How sure are we that it was George, Harriot and children on board the Magnet going to New Zealand? It’s known that shipping records from back in those times sometimes recorded only the name of the husband, and sometimes then the name of the wife as Mrs ?? and then only the number children travelling (sometimes listed a 1 M and/or 1 F etc, or just one son or one daughter etc). The passenger list for the Magnet only records – Sydney (12 March 1840) to Waikouaiti under Captain Bruce – Glover Mr G – Glover family.

The first regular shipload of settler to Otago, sent by Johnny Jones to form a settlement at Waikouaiti. (I have no idea who Johhny Jones was).

Just as a side not - interestingly it also lists amongst the passengers – Chiefs (5) New Zealanders and ‘A Whaling Gang’.

The source is ‘The Commercial Journal dated 14 March 1840’, however, the family is listed elsewhere specifying exactly how many children there were (and I think the list majm provided had them listed as George Glover, wife, son and daughter).

I can be as sure as I am only based on being told of the contents of treasured family documents being held very close to someone’s heart that they are not going to part with for neither love nor money. 

However, back to the topic at hand – I wait with baited breath for the certificates from New Zealand, particularly for the marriage certificate of one Thomas Tandy and Bertha Gorham. Although I'm most curious as to why (if this is her) she would havr married under the name of Gorham, when both she and her brother George had taken the Glover name when her parents married. Given civil registration didn't commence in the UK until 1837 ordering these birth certificates isn't going to be possible, so a friendly bit of family 'coercement' might be in order. 

Cheers
Caryn

[Caryn_1]

Oh dear have I done a whoopsy in my typing again - of course George didn't marry Bertha!

I did mean to say George and Amelia on the Augusta Jessie with the 2 children.... .

I'll correct that.

I was also looking for a photo of the Magnet out of interest only to discover the following:

Magnet. Ship, 148 tons. Built Dartmouth, UK, 1815. Lbd 72.8 x 22 x 5.1 ft; reg. London, 20/37, transfered to Sydney 25 November, 36/1837, 8/1844. Captain John Chend Lewis. Wrecked at Ikolaki whaling station, Bank Peninsula, New Zealnd, 3 September 1844. One crew member drowned. [AS1]

If they did come back on the Otago, however, there is a link to view a photo of the Otago at http://www.yesteryears.co.nz/shipping/passlisto.html

I've removed the actual photo due to requiring permissions from the Queensland State Library to reproduce (which it actually stated at the bottom of the photo). Don't want to cause issues, so have provided the link instead.

Cheers
Caryn

[Caryn_1]

That's a good question muss. I'm not sure what evidence they would have to provide?

Amelia and George were married before they left the UK. I have no idea how, or what formalities they went through back then to change the name from Gorham to Glover for Bertha and George jnr before they left. Were there any formalties back then as there are today?

I don't know. Certainly by the time both Bertha and George jnr both married in Australia, they were both calling themselves Glover.

Cheers
Caryn

[bcooper960]

Info on Mary Ann, daughter of Thomas Tandy.

Thomas Tandy arrived at Otago port, NZ, in 1838 (1) (2).  According to his daughter Mary Ann, he arrived on the Magnet, which made several trips between Sydney, AU and Otago in 1838 (3). It is quite probable that his purpose was to work in the whaling station at Waikouaiti.  A key point here being that he came out of Australia.

On 30 Aug 1843 he married a Maori woman, Maria Manaha, at Waikouaiti (4). He may have had a prior relationship with another Marori woman.

The birth of his dauther Mary Ann Tandy is not registered at the NZ BDM historical website, but this is to be expected as she was a half caste child.  In a 1909 news article Mary Ann states that she remembers being christened 69 years ago (1840) by Mr. Watkins in the old (Wesleyan) Mission House. She was then presumably five years old.  In a later article, from 1929 (9), which quotes an interview with her in 1919, it states that she was baptised on 24 Mar 1844 and that her father was the Swede Thomas Tandy.  The 1844 date should be correct as Rev. Watkins was in charge of the Mission House 1841-1844.

Mary Ann was probably born about 1839 and Maria may have been her step-mother. In the book 'Invisible Sight' (5) she states: "'Being the daugher of a Maori woman and another being my stepmother' Mary Ann Tandy claimed, "I am entitled to their land as it was bequeathed to me by them before they died. I have made no injuiry into this matter as I left the Maoris when my father was lost, and have been among European people ever since.'"

Who the "European's" were that raised her is unclear. Thomas Tandy married Bertha Gorham in 1845 and he was lost/died in June 1852. Mary Ann did not marry until 1859, so the years of 1852-1859 are unaccounted for in her life (assuming she was with her father and Bertha 1845-1852, which might not be true).

Info on how to request records from the Methodist (Wesleyan) Archives at http://www.methodist.org.nz/files/docs/amy%20scott/otago%20and%20southland%20districts%20baptism%20registers.pdf but be advised that the archives are still closed as a result of the Christchurch earthquake. 

Mary Ann is mentioned in a news article in 1909 (6). You will also find reference to her land Petition dated 1885 (7), in which she identifies Thomas Tandy, an Englishman, who married a Maori woman, as her grandfather.  It should perhaps read father and that he was a Swede.

Mary Ann Tandy married Andrew Thompson in 1859 (Reg No. 1859/1464). Andrew died 20 Aug 1894 ( at their home in Waikouaiti. He was 75 years old and buried at St Johns Cemetery, Waikouaiti. Mary Ann died in 1929 (death reg 1929/7008), at the age of 93 (birth year approx 1836) and was also buried at St Johns. (St John's Church (Anglican), Beach Street, Waikouaiti)


(1) Web site "Pre-1839 foreigners in NZ " at http://sites.google.com/site/pre1839settlersinnz/index-r---z
(2) http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/magnet.htm
(3) Foveaux Strait Trade, 1838 http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-McNOldW-t1-body-d1-d14.html
(4) BURIALS & WEDDINGS FROM WAIKOUAITI REGISTERS. 30th Aug 1843 Thomas Tandy to Maria Manaha
Waikouaiti. Witnesses Hannah Watkins (&) Joseph Crocome
(5) From Invisible Sight (http://www.aupress.ca/books/120170/ebook/05_Angela_Wanhalla_2010-Invisible_Sight.pdf)
(6) 24 Mar 1909 article at PapersPast mentions the loss of her father http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=OW19090324.2.51&srpos=6&e=-------10--1----2thomas+tandy--
(7) Reports of the Native Affairs Committee, 1885. No. 64.—Petition of Mary Ann Tandy, Petitioner, who is a granddaughter of one Thomas Tandy (an Englishman, but who married a Maori woman), asks to have her maiden name enrolled on the Maori record kept by the Government. I am directed to report as follows: That the petition should be referred to Government for inquiry.  16th September, 1885.
( PapersPast, death of Andrew Thompson http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=OW18940823.2.54&srpos=1&e=-------100--1----0%22Andrew+Thompson%22++WAIKOUAITI+mary--
(9) http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19291204.2.129&srpos=1&e=01-01-1929-31-12-1929--10--1----2mary+Ann+Thompson-ARTICLE-

[bcooper960]

In case it is of interest, Andrew Thompson and Mary Ann Tandy had a daughter.

Birth Reg: 1879/5429 Thompson Levina Emily (M) Mary Ann (F) Andrew.  Born 09 Jun 1879.

Levina married Thomas Tait in 1910.  Marr Reg 1910/3256 Levina Emily Thompson (&) Thomas Tait

Levina died in 1952 and was buried in the same cemetery as her parents (St Johns). Her husband died in 1941, same cemetery.
 
Also, Andrew Thompson was a Swede.  He is listed in the book Svenskara I Nya Zeeland.  I think he was a constable/police man. 

[Caryn_1]

Wow, thank you for this information.

Bertha's story has gone from being a mystery to one of incredible interest in a short space of time.

I wonder then if Mary Ann was raised by the folk at the mission from 1852 onwards? She would have been about 13 in 1852.

And we still have the mystery of what happened to Thomas and Bertha's son Thomas George. I'm hoping the certificates will solve some of this once they arrive.

Cheers
Caryn

[majm]

Hi there,

Bonnie’s website  is a grand website.

I am tidying up my notes on Bertha. 

Re Bertha’s mother, Amelia GORHAM, 1815-1839 and Bertha’s son Thomas George TANDY 1850 - ?...

A simple Google search should  help you find other researchers with lots of information about Amelia, in particular, Amelia was not the only Gorham who was in Sydney when her son, Henry Glover was baptised at Christ Church St Lawrence, Sydney.   Perhaps Henry’s godparents were Amelia’s sibling/sibling in law, (James and Jane GORHAM) whose DAUGHTER was born at sea and baptised at that same church on that same day as Amelia and George Glover’s son Henry.     I notice that a James and Jane GORHAM’s daughter was baptised on 27 Jan 1839, given the name Maria, at the Christ Church, St Lawrence in Sydney NSW.  see C13543-8  Family search.  This is the same set of Historic Records for Henry Glover’s baptism. I think you will find that James and Jane GORHAM were residing at the same place as George and Amelia GLOVER, at what is now Oxford St, Sydney.

Perhaps after Amelia died, that family took in Bertha Gorham, and perhaps George Gorham.  Afterall, it was likely that it was Mr George Glover, and his next wife (Harriet Champion) and their son and daughter who were on the Magnet.   So it is possibly worth considering that that ‘son and daughter’ were Henry, born 1838, baptised 1839 (to Amelia and George), and perhaps the daughter on the Magnet was Harriet’s rather than Amelia's. 

Perhaps Amelia’s Sydney based relatives may have sent Bertha Gorham and/or her brother George Gorham to George and Harriet Glover (nee Champion) step parents in NZ after she/they had received some primary education in Sydney. 

So perhaps Bertha’s son, Thomas George TANDY was, as an infant or very young child, raised in the 1850s in Sydney by his relatives on his GORHAM line. 

You will find Maria GORHAM has been mis-transcribed as GORHAN at the NSW BDM online index. 
Maria GORHAN, daughter of James and Jane,  baptism  Vol 23A, line 542, of 1838.

Caryn, please check the fantastic replies to Neil’s NZ thread that he commenced to help your Aussie thread’s searches for Bertha.

Cheers,  JM

[~MERLIN~]

Amelia's family - Mother, Step Father & siblings came to AUS also.

There is a lot of information now available on the internet from various researchers of the family.

There is also a book by Desmond Gorham - On Gunnary Creek, 150 years of the Gorham family in Australia 1838-1988 - Desmond C. Gorham.

http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2057377