**COMPLETED** Warning: VERY complicated, detective work!

[myluck!]

If our ancestors had filled in every form correctly all the detective work in family history would disappear!

Anyway my reading of what I have seen to date is:

Richard Thomas Rosenberg (as stated by Carole8353) has an army record available online
In this, the information provided by the recruit states that he had four children (names and dates given previously) but there are no details of a marriage, this may indicate he was already estranged from Annie when he gave this information (top sheet dated Feb 20 1915).

When you read on in the records there is a “change of next of kin” to R. Rosenberg c/o Mrs. Sullivan, Homelands Beach, Alton, Hants. on Feb 09 1918.
This would tie in with the remarriage of Annie in 1917 and indicate that, had Richard been married, a divorce must have taken place, for which there should be a record.

Interestingly there is a letter dated Feb 10th 1915 that seems to state that he is unmarried
– see attached snapshot of word on letter;
but there is a letter of application for a separated allowance dated Apr 30 1918 and date stamped May 18 1918
that states he married Annie Blance Mille(r? Or s?) on Apr 02 1899 in Margate, Kent;
also on this form are listed the four children but with different birth dates from the original form. The months seem to correspond but the years are all out by at least one!
There is a note that they could find no marriage record to agree to information given.

This is a long shot but there is a marriage in Medway Kent in 1887 Apr-Jun (V2A P902).
It is of an Ann Miller to Richard Thomas Foster and there does not seem to be a good match on the 1901 census for this couple with the names as is; (there is a Richard and Alice).

Marriage of Annie B Miller to William Sullivan Oct-Dec 1917 Whitechapel London (V1C P366)
shows no reference to Rosenberg which could indicate either no first marriage or a divorce
but confirms MILLER as more likely name than MILES

Birth Annie Blanch MILLER Pancras London Jul-Sep 1878 (V1B P55) is then a good option for Annie's birth

[groom]

Welcome to Rootschat  Sharon1234. You need to remove your e-mail from your post or you are likely to be bombarded with spam. Amy can contact you through the Private Messaging option on this site, which is much safer.

My great grandparents were German and gave their children German names even though they were born in England. Then they anglicised them all, so it took me ages to find later records of them. My paternal grandmother, as far as I knew was Gertie (short for Gertrude) but it wasn't until she died that I discovered she was Alice Gertrude. She was also a year older that she had always claimed.

I think in years gone by, when people weren't bombarded with official forms and other ways of identification, they did use the names they were known by rather that the ones they were given at birth. So when it came to something official they filled it in without thinking and then perhaps had to admit they'd got it wrong.   

[louisa maud]

Hi Amy
Quite a long time ago I put you in touch with relatives in England, I do believe you have their email address, do you think they can help you further, I did do a huge amount of work for them as they are my friends

A marriage did not take place between Mr Rosenberg and Annie, that probably made it easier for Annie to marry Mr Sullivan 1918,

Bernard did take on the surname of his step father, Sullivan  although he was born as Bernard Rosenberg

The Rosenberg's originally first showed up in Lambeth, they seemed to be in the print or colour trade from about 1832, where they came from originally  I do not know

How strange tha tthere is a marriage  in Medway,  Richard Thomas Foster when we are looking for a Richard Thomas Rosenberg, what about a purchase of this cert to clarify matters, we do know who Richard's father was.

Best regards

Louisa Maud

[amypatricia1]

Hi everyone, and in particular Louisa Maud, of course I remember you and all of your help. I am in touch with Ron and Eileen and their nephew Barry as well, it's wonderful. This was posted a very long time ago and I have learned a lot about the Rosenbergs since then. My main curiosity now is with the O'Briens. I know that people named O'Brien often dropped the O' so their names were less Irish, but as far as I can tell, my O'Briens BECAME O'Briens, FROM being Bryants and Brians, which is puzzling.

Thank you for all the replies, I had long forgotten about this post, it must have bumped up on the forum because it's had several replies in the last couple of days. I think I will change the status to case closed and write a new post just about the O'Briens.

(Fun fact for those of you following - The Rosenberg man who did NOT actually marry Annie Blanche Miller but had four children out of wedlock with her, actually abandoned his family and moved away, never to be heard from again. We've recently discovered he changed his name to Roseberry whilst there, remarried and had a son, who subsequently was a Roseberry).

[Sally Jacobs]

Hi Carol  My is name sally Jacobs I live with a Stanley William Sullivan who is related to you he is your cousin . Bernard Alfred Sullivan being his Uncle kind regards Sally +Stanley

[Sally Jacobs]

Hi everyone, and in particular Louisa Maud, of course I remember you and all of your help. I am in touch with Ron and Eileen and their nephew Barry as well, it's wonderful. This was posted a very long time ago and I have learned a lot about the Rosenbergs since then. My main curiosity now is with the O'Briens. I know that people named O'Brien often dropped the O' so their names were less Irish, but as far as I can tell, my O'Briens BECAME O'Briens, FROM being Bryants and Brians, which is puzzling.

Thank you for all the replies, I had long forgotten about this post, it must have bumped up on the forum because it's had several replies in the last couple of days. I think I will change the status to case closed and write a new post just about the O'Briens.

(Fun fact for those of you following - The Rosenberg man who did NOT actually marry Annie Blanche Miller but had four children out of wedlock with her, actually abandoned his family and moved away, never to be heard from again. We've recently discovered he changed his name to Roseberry whilst there, remarried and had a son, who subsequently was a Roseberry).

Hi Carol  My is name sally Jacobs I live with a Stanley William Sullivan who is related to you he is your cousin . Bernard Alfred Sullivan being his Uncle kind regards Sally +Stanley

I have found the service record of Richard Thomas Rosenberg b 1875 in Bournemouth.He has crossed through the marriage section but does list 4 children.

Richard John Sydney b 3/3/1900 hammersmith
Doris Alexandra b 12/10/1903 Fulham
Stanley Arthur b 2/8/1906 Putney
Bernard b 17/7/1909 Alton Hants

I have ancestors with a German/Jewish surname who changed it in 1915 as it was not the best name to have in London during WW1 !

Carol

[dawnsh]

Hi Sally

Welcome to Rootschat 

This topic belongs to amypatricia1 who hasn't been online here for a couple of months but she should receive email notifications that we have posted and hopefully come back soon.

Dawn

[amypatricia1]

Hi Carol  My is name sally Jacobs I live with a Stanley William Sullivan who is related to you he is your cousin . Bernard Alfred Sullivan being his Uncle kind regards Sally +Stanley

Hi Sally,

Sorry I haven't been checking my forum replies, I didn't seem to be getting email notifications about them!

Bernard Alfred Sullivan was my grandma Patricia's father. I would love to know more about Stanley's family and connections if possible, so I can add the new information to my family tree.

I'm researching another branch of my family at the moment, another incredibly complicated one, but I will try to wrap my head around it all if I can!

Sorry again for the delayed response, it was lovely to hear from you and I hope you see this and are able to reply soon

Amy

[bns1973]

Hi Sally Jacobs
Just to confuse things further.... my grandmother Phyllis is Bernard Alfred Sullivan's niece! Her father Richard, was the only one of the four Rosenberg children NOT to change their name to Sullivan!!  I cannot believe that this detective work is still continuing...it's SO addictive!
Best wishes
Barry