Is this the same man?

[Scrabble]

Mike

1851 census: Susan Welch lived at 3 Willis Rd, Bromley, Tower Hamlets, with children Robert 4 and Jane? 2 (presume this is Susan Celia (have birth cert). Susan is recorded as "wife of a mariner at sea".
1856 Sept Death registration of Susan Welch in Poplar.
1861 census: Celia aged 12 was living with her Grandparents Robert and Lucy Welch at 6 Orford St, Ipswich, Suffolk.
Robert was aged 11, a Scholar at St Annes Society School at Streatham (described as a charity educating children of gentlefolk who have fallen on hard times particularly armed forces, clergymen etc.)
1871 census: Celia was a Drapers Assistant living at 281 East India Road, Bromley.
Robert aged 23 was a Clerk lodging at 18 Morant Street, Poplar.
1878 Robert got married in N London, described his father as Robert West Welch, Gentleman.
1881 census: Celia was living with her brother Robert and his wife Annie at 10 Pennyfields, Poplar.
1891 Susan Cecilia got married in Islington.
The grandparents meanwhile lived in Ipswich until they died 1869 & 70.

Thank you for your interest, it is making me go through this again, maybe I've missed something.

[Whipby]

Hi, very interesting thread!  Hope you don't mind my observations on the certificates?

1st cert - I believe both Robert West Welch's and Susan Heseltine's signatures are proper signatures, as are the two witnesses, Thomas Heseltine and Maria (?) Heseltine.  Each signature looks to be by a different hand, and also seems different from the vicar's or whoever filled in the rest of the form.

2nd cert - I believe Robert Welch's signature is a proper signature and it does look very similar to the one on the first cert - 22 years is a big time difference and handwriting can change over that period due to lots of factors, ill health, bad eyesight, etc.  In my (humble) opinion they could well be of the same person.  Obviously Elizabeth Penrose's name is not a true signature as she has made her mark, and I think it's the curate's handwriting (compare the writing of the name Elizabeth on the form - it's almost identical).  Of the two witnesses, whose surnames I can't really make out, Alfred's is I believe a true signature, and while again obviously Elizabeth just made her mark so cannot be a signature, it actually looks to me like Alfred's writing rather than the curate's (helpful to have the same first name to compare the different handwriting styles!)  Alfred's writing seems much more flowery than the curate's writing, and is done with more of a flourish.  Maybe he was her fiancee or something and wrote the name for her to make her mark against.  (Just a theory!)

Hope this helps and that you discover whether the two Roberts are one and the same.  I love a good conundrum!

Good luck.

[Scrabble]

Thank you for contributing. The two records shown are both church records from the registers and as such should be original signatures I think. I have a cert for the second marriage but it all appears to be in the same hand and would logically be a copy of the church record.

I've decided to get Robert Welch senior's will if poss (he was in the Navy so surely must have one somewhere) in the hope that it names his children and, even better, grandchildren.

[Whipby]

Yes, they should be original signatures if they are church records, and that does appear to be the case in my opinion.  That's a good idea trying to obtain his will, good luck with that!

[riversideresearch]

Hi
I read your post with interest as I am directly related to Commander Robert Welch RN through my maternal line.  He was my 4 x great uncle, I have done quite a bit of work with the family and there is a good deal of confusion about his children and their descendants.
I will dig out my file on the family and see what I have which might help to clarify the situation.
Other members of Robert Welch's family varied in their occupations and prosperity, his brother Thomas (my line) was a Gunner, RN and although not an officer was comfortably off due to his share of prizes and permanent post on board ship.
Kind regards
Anida

[Scrabble]

I am so pleased to hear from you - thank you. I am now stuck as to where to look next.

I found Robert West Welch's marriage, his wife's death and what happened to his son and daughter (son in a charity school and daughter brought up by the grandparents, both went on to marry and have children) but I was unable to find Robert himself any census unless he is "my" Robert Welch. It is quite possible that he went back to sea of course, or died, but I can't find that either.

I would be so grateful for anything you can suggest.

[Redroger]

Looks like the same hand to me 

Actually, looking at it in more detail, that same hand may have belonged to the Registrar or whoever wrote the entries in the register . . . much of the writing looks very similar on both forms.

That is a problem with handwriting, most specimens from a similar period in history look very much like each other.

[riversideresearch]

Hello again

I have had a look at my file and it is far from straightforward, I think you may have missed the family in 1851. Perhaps it might be easier if we contacted directly as there is quite a bit of information and some more mysteries to untangle.

I certainly don't have all the answers, and like all delving into family history you solve one mystery only to have another one on your hands!

What do you think?

Anida 

[Scrabble]

Many thanks Anida, I will PM you my email address.
Pat