Is this the same man?

[Scrabble]

Is it (as I believe) the church register that has the original signature of marriage parties and the certificate is just a copy? I have both records for the second marriage .

If so could I please have opinions as to whether this is the second marriage of the same man? The signatures are 22 years apart.

[mike175]

Looks like the same hand to me 

[Scrabble]

Perhaps I should explain my reticence.

Robert West Welch was the son of a Royal Navy commander who sailed with Nelson. He was baptised at Frindsbury Kent and then again with siblings at Greenwich. He married Susan Heseltine in 1840 but she died in 1856 in Poplar Middx leaving 2 children. The son seems to have gone to a charity school and the daughter brought up by the grandparents. No sign of Robert West Welch in any UK census after that.

Robert Welch surfaces in the 1861 census with my ancestor Elizabeth (Penrose/Richardson) nee Lowdell living in Poplar. No definite sighting of him before that. He says in the census that he was born in Hammersmith. (Robert West Welch's family seem to have moved around a lot but did live in Little Stanmore in 1841 census and a daughter Fanny was born in Hammersmith. Robert Welch and Elizabeth named their daughter Fanny.)

Sorry, I digress, what I am trying to say is that Robert West Welch came from a presumably wealthy family (he is described as a Gentleman on his daughter's marriage cert) but Elizabeth was illiterate, twice widowed with stepchildren in tow. Her father was a caulker with the royal navy.

Is this a likely alliance?

[sugs]

 Having read your last,I must say i am not up in the social side of these times, but I can understand your reticence.
However I must say that the handwriting on both certificates I think are exactly the same.
 Sue

[stonechat]

Well they were both widowed and lived in the same street, seems a typical basis for marriage to me

[Scrabble]

I think they were actually living in the same house as my great-grandma was born January 1861 and they were all together at 7 Richard Street in the 1861 census with Elizabeth recorded as "wife". However they didn't get married until August 1862. Perhaps she was his housekeeper and they ...um... became close!

[mike175]

Looks like the same hand to me 

Actually, looking at it in more detail, that same hand may have belonged to the Registrar or whoever wrote the entries in the register . . . much of the writing looks very similar on both forms.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but have you tried searching for an alternative history for 'your' Robert? If there is no likely alternative candidate, that would increase the likelihood of it being the same man

Mike

[Scrabble]

Hi Mike

I've been searching for at least 5 years. The search was stalled at first because he said on the census he was born in Hammersmith and it took me a while to disprove that. When I eventually cast the net wider and discounted several others along the way I was left with Robert West Welch.

I would love it to be him because my tree is pretty average and his father, an illustrious naval commander, would spice it up no end. However it just seems so unlikely as the families are so different. My Robert Welch obviously did have some education as he was a clerk to a house agent in 1861 census. But he doesn't seem to have left a will and his widow seems to have ended up dying alone in the parish relief office at Dalston 5 years after his death so he can't have left her well provided for, yet his supposed father was a RN Commander with a string of medals including a gold one! I suppose it is possible that if he was Robert West Welch he fell apart after the death of his first wife and although picked up and dusted down by Elizabeth (who had already had 2 husbands die on her) he never recovered. Or maybe it was due to illness, he was paralysed for 3 years prior to his death in 1885.

I feel it needs more proof but don't know where to go next. Only thought of the signature thing this morning and they do look very alike, but writing styles were not very diverse in those days.

[mike175]

With the same profession, and the same father's name & profession, on both certificates I'd say the odds are in favour of them being the same man. But I'm only too well aware of unusual coincidences

If he was a mariner he may well have been absent during the census . . . have you searched for Susan alone or with family in 1851?

I don't know how these things were/are done but I fear both entries may be copies as the handwriting does look very similar overall

Mike.