HORNELL

[jeaniology]

I'm researching James Hornell (1865 - 1949), the zoologist, who was a cousin to Edward Atkinson Hornell, the painter, but I am having trouble linking the two cousins and wonder if anyone knows their relationship.  How were they related - 1st cousins, 2nd cousins?  Were their fathers brothers?  I believe James' father was George Hornell who died early, and that is when James and his mother Dorothy went to live with his father's sisters, (Janet M. Hornell and Isabella Hornell on Castle Street in Kirkcudbright (Source:  Scots Census).  Edward is a relative to me, and I would like to link James up too since he was a cousin to Edward, but I can't figure out the link.  Any suggestions or hints gratefully accepted.

[CaroleW]

Hi and welcome to Rootschat

Just for some additional background info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hornell

James Hornell (1865–1949) was an English zoologist and seafaring ethnographer. He was a cousin of Edward Atkinson Hornel, a Scottish painter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Atkinson_Hornel

Edward Atkinson Hornel (1864-1933) was a Scottish painter of landscapes, flowers, and foliage, with children. He was a cousin of James Hornell.
He was born in Australia, of Scottish parents, and he was brought up and lived practically all his life in Scotland, at Kirkcudbright.

From freebmd  www.freebmd.org.uk

Births December qtr 1865   
James Hornell  Chorlton  8c 524

Edwards father was William Lidderdale Hornell born 1823 Kirkcudbrightshire

George was b 1837 Kirkcudbright and his father was  James Hornell  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/9QRB-5Q6/p4 

1861 shows James was b 1793 Kirkcudbright so I doubt that he and William were brothers

[Gadget]

Hi

I've been working around the same material as Carole. I think the cousinship is not very close.

This is what I have so far:

In 1871, James is staying with the Kirkcudbrighshire Hornells

13 Castle Street, Kirkcudbright
*Janet McG Hornell, 47, annuitant, b. Kirkcudbright
Isabella, sister, 24, -do-
Dorothy, sister in law, 25, -do-, b. England
James, nephew, 5, b. England

Edward was also in Kirkcudbright

High Street, Kirkcudbright
*Wm Lidderdale Hornel, 48, Boot and Shoe maker, b. Kirkcudbright
Annie E Habbislan (?), wife, 39, b. England  (birth record of David says they married 1854, Kurkcudbright - not checked)
Mary Hornell, d, 13, b. Kirkcudbright
Elizabeth, d, 11, b. Australia, Victoria
Janet, d,  8,  b. -do-
William, s, 6, b. -do-
Edward A, s, 6, b. -do-
Grace C, d, 5, b. -do-
David, s, 10 mths, b. Kirkcudbright


What we have from these is:

* Janet McGie Hornel (George's sister) was baptised 3 May 1821 Kirkcudbright to James Hornel and Mary Atkin

*William Lidderdale  was baptised 26 March 1822 to William Hornel and Margaret Heron

So - is there a connection between James Hornel (grandfather of James) and William Hornel (grandfather of Edward)

I'm still sifting through a list of baptisms for  the next generation. Will try and go back further tomorrow unless someone else can work back from this.


gnu

[jeaniology]

Hello, and thank you!  I am glad to find other Hornell researchers.  Your right, I am getting my years mixed up and there is no way James' father George and Edward A. Hornell's father, William, could be brothers.  So I'll have to start looking for a connection further beyond that.


I have James Hornell (1865) birth certificate showing George Thomson Hornell (1837) as his father.  His father had a business in Lancashire but he died in Scotland in 1869 (I have his Scots death record).  James remained living with his aunts in Kirkcudbright and in the 1881 census he is still there along with his mother Dorothy.  I understand that Dorothy eventually returned to Lancashire to take care of the business and James then went into zoology writing quite a few very detailed books ... none of which contained a biography unfortunately!!  I know he did get married and eventually had a daughter though. 


Going further back, his father, George Thomson Hornell (1837) was the son of James Hornell and Mary Aitken (OPR births 871/00 0020 0077 Kirkcudbright).  (Perhaps the connection I'm looking for between James Hornell and Edward A. Hornell stretches back to the grandparents line or beyond .... hmmmm!)  And according to the death record, James Hornell the elder (abt 1790) who died in 1869 at the age of 73 years (871/00 0012), was the son of John Hornell, a shoemaker, and Margaret Thomson.

If the cousin relationship stretches back into the grandparents line then the cousinship would be something like a first cousin, once or twice removed, I expect.  They must share a set of grandparents somewhere in there!

William Hornell (1801) and Margaret Heron were my 3x great-grandparents.  Their son William Lidderdale Hornell (1822) married Ann Elizabeth Habbishaw on 10 June 1853 in Kirkcudbright. 

I'm suspecting now the connection between James Hornell and Edward A. Hornell must be further back than I expected.  If you come across a connection please let me know because it's driving me batty!!!  I want to find the missing link.

Many thanks.  I'll keep looking and will post anything I find too. 

[Gadget]

There is an inventory for William Lidderdale Hornell, dated 22 Oct 1880. He died 19 June 1879 at Bacchus Marsh, Victoria. Do you have this inventory?

Although the lack of a record for the elder William (B.C. 1798)  seems to stymie any further research, I have found an interesting family earlier in the 18th century. Given that Janet Hornel, aunt of James and sister of George, had McGie as her middle name we have these bpts in Kirkcudbright

29 Dec 1752 John - s/o John Hornel and Janet McGhie
24 August 1755 William - s/o Robert Hornel/McGhie

I thought that I was getting somewhere when I looked at the Kirkcudbright MIs. There are 3 graves with monuments adjacent. These include -

*William Hornel, shoemaker- died 13 Dec 1853, aged 57. wife Margaret Heron. d. 14 Feb 1850, aged 53.

* Janet McGhie d. 1788 (husband Robert Hornel, shoemaker d. 24 Oct  1799 aged 73). John Hornel (their son) d. 8 June 1829, aged 77. Wife Margaret Thomson d 11 Nov 1822, aged 63

*Wm L Hornel, d. Coimadia Victoria 19 June 1879.aged 58. widow Anne Eliz Habbishaw d 27 Jan 1906, age 74 (and children which you, no doubt,  have)

However, in another grave  a few rows from these 3 is:

*James Hornell d 19 Jan 1863, aged 73. Wife mary Aitken d. 22 June 1849, aged 57. also mentioned are children/in laws - George; Mary; Catherine Thomson, Robert; William; John: James; Thomas; George Thomson; Margaret; Isabella; Janet; Dorothy (widow of George T)

So, no real connection so far, except the Hornel(l)  surname and Janet McGhie

A piece on the Lidderdales (I assume William was called after the famous family rather than being of it) 

http://www.lidderdale.com/pdfs/An%20Account%20of%20Lowland%20Scots%20Family%20of%20Lidderdale.pdf


gnu

[Gadget]

I think I might have missed the obvious connection here - maybe we have both put up too much in one go 

You said:

And according to the death record, James Hornell the elder (abt 1790) who died in 1869 at the age of 73 years (871/00 0012), was the son of John Hornell, a shoemaker, and Margaret Thomson.

This James is George's father and James the zoologist's grandfather.

I said:

* Janet McGhie d. 1788 (husband Robert Hornel, shoemaker d. 24 Oct  1799 aged 73). John Hornel (their son) d. 8 June 1829, aged 77. Wife Margaret Thomson d 11 Nov 1822, aged 63

As this grave is between the two William graves, it is likely that there was kinship. I'll have to read through the MIs again in case  I've missed something.


The connection might well be Janet McGhie and Robert Hornel


gnu

[Gadget]

29 Dec 1752 John - s/o John Hornel and Janet McGhie
24 August 1755 William - s/o Robert Hornel/McGhie

* Janet McGhie d. 1788 (husband Robert Hornel, shoemaker d. 24 Oct  1799 aged 73). John Hornel (their son) d. 8 June 1829, aged 77. Wife Margaret Thomson d 11 Nov 1822, aged 63

Just highlighting this as, if John was 77 in 1829, then he was born circa 1752. I'm thinking that maybe the parish clerk entered Robert's name down incorrectly as John - it did happen. So, if we had a William b.c. 1755  who was the ancestor of the other Williams , we'd have the link 

[jeaniology]

I'll print this off and have a good look over it.  The link has to be somewhere.  Many thanks for helping.  It really does make a difference to have a fresh pair of eyes.  Yes,  agree about the Lidderdale name.  I have never come across a Lidderdale connection in the family.

Carole

[JennNZ]

Hello from New Zealand

Did you have any success with your query as I would like to see if these HORNELs are connected to my HORNELLs from Glenluce and Castle Sinniness? That is chn of William HORNELL 1805-1862 and Janet MUIR 1804-1873

Regards
Jennifer

I'm researching James Hornell (1865 - 1949), the zoologist, who was a cousin to Edward Atkinson Hornell, the painter, but I am having trouble linking the two cousins and wonder if anyone knows their relationship.  How were they related - 1st cousins, 2nd cousins?