Where do you look

[majm]

There is an announcement in the Sydney Gazette of 12 Jan 1837 for a death of a 12 year old lass, daughter of a Captain FIELD.  "On Monday, the 9th instant, in Elizabeth street, after a severe illness of up wards of three months, Miss Charlotte Field, eldest daughter of Captain Field, of the Hon. E. I. C's Service, aged 12 years, 9 months, and 7 days."    I think that the burial cert for that lass would be indexed in the Early Church Records of NSW BDM as Vol 21, line 2129 of 1837. 

I recall that the Portugese also had colonial interests in the East Indies and/or the sub-continent,  Toledo may be Portugese in origin?  Captain Field's given name is not mentioned in that cutting, link http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2208821

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_India

I have not found Robert Field et al in Sydney circa 1837.

I note that at the link that Cando found and posted for you part of that reads: 

"Robert Field aged 49 and Margaret Drummond aged 27 may have left Tasmania on the "SIREN on 20 October 1836 bound for Sydney"       .....

I am concerned....  The "Siren" was reportedly in Sydney on the 14th  Oct 1836 with passengers , guards from a regiment and 6 prisoners from India.  The Siren was ex Hobart.  No mention of the surname in the cutting, but I understand that on occasions steerage passenger names frequently were not noted in the newspapers   : http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/32152502 Sydney Monitor 17 Oct 1836.

The Siren was still in Sydney on the 20th Oct. as this cutting clearly shows :
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/32152532 Sydney Monitor 21 October 1836

Trove is a real treasure trove, the digitised newspapers section is along the same lines as NZ's papers past, and there are regular additions, just like NZPP too.  It is feel to search and there is the option to correct the OCR translations.  It is found on the Resources boards for Aust at RChat.

Cheers,  JM

[Foehn]

Perhaps one of my questions was not exactly clear.... 

Do you have any likely arrival dates for Robert and Margaret and Toledo into NZ please?

I had read the link giving 1840,  I was asking for the dates  .. as in month of 1840... 

I have some offline NSW resources and I am happy to look through to try to help, but I was hoping for clues ...  I am somewhat confused as to the fundamental question you are seeking answers to.   I think you are trying to confirm or eliminate Robert and/or Margaret being Toledo's parents.

Does Toledo's d.c. state Sydney NSW or just Sydney or just NSW please...  and is it NS Wales or NS or NSW or New South Wales. 

I am in NSW, so I am less sure of NZ admin systems, but have you already tried to confirm or eliminate the newspaper cutting chap as being the husband of Margaret? and/or the father of Toledo?

Have you sought the Intention To Marry document for that 1876 marriage at CHCH .... There are often further details on those.   

I will have another look in the morning, hopefully I will have less questions then... It is perhaps near midnight in NZ, as it is near ten pm here.

Cheers,  JM

Morning Jm, Sorry, it was a bit late at night for me last night and I was trying to put in as much documented information as I could.

I do not have a date for Robert, Margaret and Toledo's arrival I have looked though my note books but only have 1840 recorded. The book I got this information from was a small publication of early settlers in the Auckland area and gave only years, no dates or ships and I recall Lance and I looked through shipping but found nothing conclusive.

No I was not aware of intention to marry records, but that will be worthwhile checking.
Toledo's death certificate only records Toledo as being born in Australia. (family oral history put him in Sydney)
I am confident that Robert Field and Margaret were Toledo's parents. (Just not sure if the Field/Drummond marriage is the one I need. Margaret is named on his death certificate His father though recorded as Henry Frankfort on Toledo's DC is also named as the late  Robert Field, in the obituary published Auckland Star 5 June 1922. This also mentions a surviving brother William Field who was well documented as an insurance fireman (known as Captain) William was a half brother however and when he died he was buried as William Mcguire. In the article, it says that Toledo's indentures as a printer to Williamson and William Chisholm Wilson, were signed by both printers, Toledo and his father.
In the death report at BDM, Toledo is named as the son of Robert field and reported his father's death (as per that clipping)

What I am trying to establish is that Robert Field was not English, as per the unsubstantiated "clipped on family" but rather that he was indeed Irish.

Two ships that are possibilities to put Robert Field in Bay of Islands in 1830 are "Elizabeth" from Sydney  in march 1830 and the Brig "Wellington" 25 January 1827 also from Sydney .  Other early ships to bay of Islands are "The George Osbourne" 14 August 1825 from Gravesend

[majm]

Hi there,

ITM ... Intention To Marry ... I have often noticed mentioned on the NZ board at RChat.  Perhaps you could post a request on that board asking for a look up as you have the date for that marriage.  As I understand it, each marriage needed the parties to provide their details to the clergy and the clergy recorded that information on his ITM form.  That then caused the announcement (ie banns etc) in that local parish, so that any objections could be addressed before the ceremony. 

I understand that many ITMs have been indexed but I am not sure where in NZ those indexes are held.  NZ Rchatters would know this of course.

Here is the link to the NZ Board

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,299.0.html 

Many thanks for explaining why you are confident that Robert and Margaret are the names of Toledo's parents.   I agree, if a son provides info for his own father's d.c.  well, that's a fair certainity     Is there any other info from that 1863 record that you think will help?  Those early records can be somewhat scant in the info though.   

Re Captain William (insurance fireman) ... who was his Dad .... have you checked with any descendants on Captain William's line to see if they have any BDM info for his parentage ... Could be they have confusing details eg a mention of Henry in lieu of .......?

I wonder if the expression "English" was perhaps being very strictly interpreted by some researchers at some stage?   I feel sure that the "English" landlords in "Ireland" in the early 19th C would have considered their children born in Ireland to be "English" rather than "Irish". 

I have not found Robert/Margaret/Toledo FIELD in any of my offline NSW resources.   I cannot find them in any TAS Archives online either.  But if they were in VDL, then perhaps they went directly to NZ from there? 

Cheers,  JM

[wivenhoe]

Have you actually sighted this article about Toledo, 1922?

"...His father though recorded as Henry Frankfort on Toledo's DC is also named as the late  Robert Field, in the obituary published Auckland Star 5 June 1922. This also mentions a surviving brother William Field who was well documented as an insurance fireman (known as Captain) William was a half brother however and when he died he was buried as William Mcguire. In the article, it says that Toledo's indentures as a printer to Williamson and William Chisholm Wilson, were signed by both printers, Toledo and his father.

It might be quite informative if it mentions the names of people involved in his indenture.

If you have identified a half-brother then that should give you two more points of reference for Toledo's origins - second marriage for parent, and birth certificate for William.  Do you have these certificates?

The marriage certificate that you have...is it an image of a handwritten original, or a typed transcript please?

The NZ BDM index has his name at marriage as Tolade. It might be an error on a transcription.

Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate.

What is the earliest record that you have of Toledo....apart from what you are finding after his marriage in 1876?

[majm]

Re those indentures with Toledo and his father signing these... any date/place included in that document please 
*  eg I, Robert Field Esq of ...............,  New Zealand, on this day .............  of the month of .............. in the year of ..............


Cheers,  JM

[wivenhoe]

Can you please give all the information on the 1863 death certificate for Robert Field.

Probably not much at  that early date, but I think you have Toledo as the informant and it would be useful to know how he names himself.

Just Toledo...or the other names as well...or?

[Foehn]

Can you please give all the information on the 1863 death certificate for Robert Field.

Probably not much at  that early date, but I think you have Toledo as the informant and it would be useful to know how he names himself.

Just Toledo...or the other names as well...or?

Not much on the certificate. Place of registration: AucklandName and surname:Robert Field Profession or Occupation: Cabinet maker. Sex, age, DOB:  M 76 Numbers, 1-19 not registered If issue living state ages of each sex: M F When died: 25 September 1863 Where died: Private Hospital
Cause of death: General debility.

The certificate does not record that Toledo reported the death. That was on a separate report which was held at the Auckland office of BDM. It definitely said Son, Toledo. No other names recorded

[Foehn]

Re those indentures with Toledo and his father signing these... any date/place included in that document please 
*  eg I, Robert Field Esq of ...............,  New Zealand, on this day .............  of the month of .............. in the year of ..............


Cheers,  JM

I have never seen the actual indenture. I only know of it's existence (at one time) due to the mention in the Obituary. Will try attaching the PDF file of the Obituary. Ok that didn't work the file is too big so I have converted it to a jpeg.

[majm]

Hi there,

Have you checked the files that are indexed at Archways for Toledo Field and for his Dad ?

Particularly :
there's one for Toledo and the Auckland Rifles ... I am thinking of a likely date and place of birth on enlistment  and there's two for correspondence from a Robert Field in 1841 (Schedule A - letter dated 23 March 1841 to Colonial Secretary, New South Wales (registered file Colonial Secretary 41/4442; writer - Robert Field, respecting claim to land at New Zealand - Case 294) . Perhaps noting the name of the arriving ship, and also his native place. 

Cheers,  JM