Wrexham Jones Davies 1860s and earlier

[Joanne Welch]

My ancestors John Jones, a coal miner and Ellen Davies, married in St Giles, Wrexham on 11th Feb 1861, giving their fathers as Edward Jones, a collier and William Davies, a labourer. I don't know anything about their mothers or forebears and would love to. Can anybody help please?

John says he was born in Poolmouth and Gwersyllt, both Wrexham, on different censuses. The best bet from earlier census data for John's dad appears to be Edward Jones, a collier - in 1851 with an 8 yr old son John, but in 1861 his son John, a collier, is now 18, unmarried and living with him, whilst John and Ellen my ancestors are living on Poolmouth Rd, Wrexham, a few doors down from their wedding witnesses Joseph and Jane Lloyd.  So I've had to rule that family out.

The best bet for Ellen seems to be William Davies a carpenter in 1841, then a wheelwright in 1851, but his daughter Ellen is 4 years too old - my Ellen consistently gives her birth year as 1842 - and she was born in Llanddoget, though still in Denbighshire, a long way from Kings Mills, Wrexham, where my Ellen said she was born. Intriguingly her elder sister is called Jane, so I've tried to find a marriage for her to John Lloyd. There isn't one, but there is a Ruabon marriage between a Jane Davies and a Jenkin Lloyd (could he have called himself John?)

So I can't find ideal fits from census data. Can anyone please help?

Many thanks,

Jo Welch

[CaroleW]

Can you include John's birthyear please

[wrjones]

Well Jo,I managed to find your Tree on A*******. One thing to point out to start is that you will not find John Jones born in c 1840 in the 1841 Census as the Census for the Wrexham area is lost.

I do note that the Ellen Jones married to John in the 1861 Census is given as born in Bersham,it is some way from Kings Mills?

Regards
William Russell Jones.

[wrjones]

I really hate to be negative Jo but I would be keeping an open mine if I were you about the Joseph/Jane Lloyd link.From 1855 to 1858 there are three marriages listed on North Wales BMD in the Wrexham area for a Joseph Lloyd to a Jane.None of the Janes are surnamed Jones or Davies.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

[Joanne Welch]

Thanks so much for your help, Carole and William. I didn't know the 1841 census for Wrexham was lost. That explains a lot.

I cannot identify John Jones's birth registration, Carole, since there are SO many babies of that name born in Wrexham, but in the 1861 census he says he was born in Gwersyllt in 1839. In the 1871 census he says he was born in 1841 in Poolmouth. His age at his 11 Feb 1861 wedding is given as full. My mum was told he died in a mining accident before his daughter Mary moved to Salford, and I guess he might be the John Jones dying in the Glan-yr-afon colliery, Bersham on 3 Aug 1880, but his profession is given on a mining disasters website as fireman, and my grt-grt grandad was definitely a collier - all the family knew that.

Regarding Ellen Davies, William, well spotted on the 1861 census birthplace being given as Bersham. In 1871 she gives Kings Mills, FLINTSHIRE, in 1881 Kings Mills, Wrexham, Denbighshire, in 1891 she names Wrexham as her birthplace. According to Google maps, the Kings Mills hotel, Wrexham is 3.4 miles from Bersham. Does that strike you as right?

Many thanks for all your help,

Jo

[Ruskie]

I guess he might be the John Jones dying in the Glan-yr-afon colliery, Bersham on 3 Aug 1880, but his profession is given on a mining disasters website as fireman, and my grt-grt grandad was definitely a collier - all the family knew that.

Jo, keep in mind that he may have been the Colliery Fireman - maybe a coalminer with extra training ...  Though there is often a lot of truth in family stories, sometimes the finer points get lost or embellished over the years.

[wilcoxon]

8 men died. August 3 1880
John Jones, Edward Owen fire man , Robert Lloyd, Joseph Matthias, Evan Parry, John Pattison. James Thomas, Robert Evans .

Wrexham Advertiser. Saturday, August 14, 1880
Funerals reported .
John Pattison manager, Robert Lloyd, hooker  and John Jones fireman were buried at Esclusham on Friday.
Edward Owen at Chirk on Saturday,
Evan Parry at Chirk on Tuesday
Thomas Evans at Gwersyllt on Sunday.
Joseph Mathias fireman  Esclusham on  Tuesday.

I would have thought that if John Jones was a native of Gwersyllt , that he would have been buried there rather than  Esclusham, now  better known as Holy Trinity, Rhostyllen.
A look at the Holy Trinity  burial registers should give JJ`s age.

[wrjones]

Yes Jo,the distance is about right which is why I mentioned it.It could turn out that it may be Joseph Lloyd himself who is the relative.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

[Joanne Welch]

Thanks so much for all the help again.

It's interesting to know that they were buried at Esclusham , because in the 1881 census Ellen, John's widow and children are living in 105, Hallum Row, Esclusham Below, so I guess they moved there from Gwersyllt (where they lived in 1871) sometime in the 1870s.

I therefore suppose it was their new local cemetery - although soon after Ellen and the children still living at home followed Mary to the Salford area - moving to Irlam. In 1886 Mary married a Salford barber, but his business and their home was in the notorious Hanky Park, where cholera and typhoid were rife, and her husband shaved a man with typhoid, caught it and died in 1891, so the family had lots of tragedy, as did so many at that time.

As for his age, Ruskie, I can't easily get to Holy Trinity Rhostyllen in the near future (though I may some day) but his death registration is Jul-Aug-Sep 1880 giving his age at death as 40. So he must have been born late 1839 or before 3 Aug 1840.

BTW William - I have tried marriages between the fathers and Lloyds and can't find any very likely candidates - just a possible Ellen, child of William Davies and Elinor Lloyd of Denbighshire, but she's 15 years older than mine and NO-ONE could lie about their age that much - could they? I've hopefully contacted the tree owner, but am not holding out much hope.

Thanks so much everyone.

Jo