Jane McCallum 1819 Shotts Lanarkshire

[TropiConsul]

" 1818- James McCallum weaver in Burnie of Wester Moffat and Mary Murray Spouse had a daughter born there on the 22nd Novr and baptized here on the 7th of March 1819 Matno Sponsor and named Jane McCallum"

The place name looks like Burnie to me, but I can't find it in Scotland's Places.
 Matno Sponsor might be a Latin term, but I can't figure it out.

Any ideas?

[Alexander.]

I think the place is Burne as there aren't enough strokes for Burnie (and I think the dot is just a mark on the page). But I'm not familiar with Scotland at all so I've no idea whether such a place exists...

It looks like 'Matre Sponsor' to me. At first I thought it might be an abbreviation of maternal, but now I'm thinking it was an attempt to spell 'Mature'. But I'm not sure.

Alexander

[Gadget]

Hi

I agree with Burne - it would be worth checking out the old maps on:

http://maps.nls.uk/

The phrase below is, I think,  Matro Sponsore - meaning Maternal Guarantor/Sponsor


gnu

[Gadget]

Hi again

On modern maps there is a Burn Wood just to the south of Wester Moffat Farm and further NW is a Burnhead. I think that Burne must be along the burn that runs N-S - close by Moffat Mills. The burn seems part of the North Calder Heritage Trail

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0fcm/


gnu

[arthurk]

I think the underlined phrase is "Matre Sponsore" - what a grammarian would call an ablative absolute. The translation would be something like "with the mother as sponsor". (Note that no other name is given here that could apply to the sponsor.)

Arthur

[TropiConsul]

As near as I can tell "Matre Sponsore" means "mother of guarantor".  That indicates that one of the child's grandparents was the sponsor.

[arthurk]

As near as I can tell "Matre Sponsore" means "mother of guarantor".

No - "mother of guarantor" would be "mater sponsoris". The word endings in Latin are absolutely crucial in determining how words relate to each other, and automated translators don't always get it right. Here, the -e ending can only be the ablative case, leading to the translation I've proposed ("with the mother as sponsor").

That indicates that one of the child's grandparents was the sponsor.

But then "mother of sponsor" would be the child's great-grandmother - ??

Admittedly my translation might raise the question "whose mother?", but in the absence of any other indication (or indeed any other name), I think it has to be taken as the child's.

Arthur

[Gadget]

Hi

I did translate it as Maternal  Guarantor/Sponsor early this morning:

The phrase below is, I think,  Matro Sponsore - meaning Maternal Guarantor/Sponsor


gnu

By this, I assumed that the mother acted as sponsor


gnu

[TropiConsul]

Thanks for the help.  I've studied Spanish and German (where I was bedeviled by the nominative, genitive, accusative, and dative cases) but neither language prepared me for the complexities of Latin where one encounters the ablative absolute, a thermodynamic condition that might be approximated in an expensive university chemistry lab by a careless and unsupervised sophomore with a death wish!  Ergo I will decline the opportunity to decline Latin phrases with those who were properly educated in the subject. 

What is the social or cultural or religious significance of "Matre Sponsore"?  Does this mean the parents were not Presbyterian?  Does this mean the father was illiterate and the mother was literate?  I have not encountered this phrase in any other record.