# 32 Reply summary of family = HART P J & Corcoran M NSW Australia

[majm]

Hi May Hem

I am happy to have both in the family tree - Convicts and a blood relative of a Bushranger.

No shame here in the 21st Century !!!

Only when you have time to look it up - Owens !!!

Keep in touch - and l will start looking for Richard`s family etc...

Regards

Jamison

Here's the link to Jamison's new thread re Richard's family http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,585558.0.html

Cheers,  JM

[May Hem]

Hi Jamison

Paul O'Keeffe is a gt gt grandson of Ettie (Esther) Hart, younger sister of Steve Hart, sister of Richard Hart jnr, and daughter of Richard Hart, snr..
Ettie allegedly was secretly married to Ned Kelly.
His website is www.neducate.com.au.
He may be able to give some shortcuts in your research of the Richard Harts.

kind regards
Trish

[Dundee]

Hi May Hem,

I think you might need to look at the Tasmanian convict info again.  Where are you getting the convict numbers from?

Margaret Hart nee Corcoran
Convict
Ship Name : Blackfriar
261 convicts on board
Departure point : Ireland
Departure Date :24/01/1851
Arrival Date 29/05/1851
Conduct Record CON 41/30
Indent CON 15/7
Description CON19/9

Tried In Kings Court, Limerick
Larceny - stole a cow

Ann Lavery (also convicted) probable sister,
Guilty of receiving stolen goods (maybe milk from the cow?)

Margaret Corcoran's convict number is 16463.

Margaret Corcoran's father was Patrick Corcoran, unknown profession.
Her mother was Mary Macklin.

kind regards
MayHem

Margaret CORCORAN per Blackfriar to Tas, arr. 29 May 1851

Convict No. 1157
Her father was Thomas, not Patrick
Sister Ann CORCORAN tried and transported with her, also for cow stealing, not receiving stolen goods
Their brothers were Daniel, James and William, one sister Mary Ann
Margaret married Robert RUCK in Tas in 1852
She received her conditional pardon in 1857 and they moved to Victoria where I can see them having children up until at least 1868.

Sister Ann married  Thomas RIORDAN in 1855 and died a few months later.

(James) Patrick HART
Convict 33869
Ship Name : Emily(2)
Departure Point : Dublin
Departure Date : 14/07/1844
Arrival Date : 30/10/1844, Tasmania
Conduct Record : CON33/60
Indent : CON14/29
Description List CON 18/37

Tried in Tipperary
Charged with arms/assault.
Age 24 yrs (?)

Patrick HART per Emily to Tas, arr. 30 Oct 1844

Convict No. 14303
Father John, Mother Ellen
Brothers Frank and Johnny
Sister Mary Ellen
No mention of a brother Richard

His brother RICHARD HART,
convict  No 33877
Ship : Recovery
Departure Port : Downs
Departure Date :1/06/1837
Arrival Date : 8/10/1837 Tasmania
Conduct Record 31/22
Description List CON 18/22, CON23/2
Appropriation List SO5/73/1622 p.240, MM33/6, CON 27/7

Richard HART per Recovery to Tas, arr. 8 Oct 1837

Convict No. 2239
Tried at the Central Criminal Court, London (Old Bailey)
Native of Deptford or Bedford (description lists name both places, possibly an issue with his accent)
He was not Irish

Tas convict records are free to view on the archives website http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=11

Debra  

[majm]

Well sorted Debra, 

There's also this recent thread re Steve Hart

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,582028.0.html

Cheers,  JM

[May Hem]

Hi everyone

Convict numbers are different, but ship is the same, for Richard Hart.
Our genealogist used QSearch, State Library of Q'ld,entries in the British convict transportation register 1787-1867, compiled from British Home Office(HO) records.
May be worth checking for comparison.
Source : Australian Joint Copying Project, Microfilm Roll 90, Class and Piece Number HO11/11 Page No. 42 (Richard Hart).
I have checked the Tasmanian Govt website, and note the difference. Think checking the British Home Office might be helpful.

Re: Margaret Corcoran Hart, her parental details have come from a transcript - either of her death certificate or church records.

Hope this information helps.
regards to all
May Hem

[Dundee]

Hi May Hem,

Source : Australian Joint Copying Project, Microfilm Roll 90, Class and Piece Number HO11/11 Page No. 42 (Richard Hart).

I did look at this original document and no convict numbers are recorded.

QSearch, State Library of Q'ld,entries in the British convict transportation register 1787-1867, compiled from British Home Office(HO) records.

This index is compiled from the same record as above (HO11/11 Page No. 42)

I note that the numbers you have for Richard and Patrick are only 8 digits apart so I would say that they have come from an alphabetical listing of convict names.

This Richard HART was born and tried in England, so he cannot be the Richard HART who married Bridget YOUNG and who claimed to be born in Dublin.

The convict Margaret CORCORAN who was transported on the Blackfriar is not the same person as the Margaret who married Patrick HART.

Perhaps the person who supplied these convict details was just giving you some options to explore further.

Debra 

[May Hem]

Hi Debra

Please -no talk about something to explore!  We understood that these were the facts . Maybe the convicts have taken over!
My documents are printouts from QSearch - Tasmanian Convict files.
Within the Hart/Corcoran family relationships it is known that they were all - Kellys, Quinns included -transported to Tasmania, and then all made their way to Victoria. We know for certain that (James) Patrick Hart and Richard Hart were brothers.
Failing these now seemingly doubtful records -which we have never had cause to doubt - the next best course is to find the correct persons.
Maybe through the tip I gave re the gentleman who is a Richard Hart family descendant and historian. He has documents and clippings from Ettie Hart, daughter of Richard Hart, and  who died in 1926. I think he would be the best, quickest and probably most accurate source.
I did wonder whether convicts left the UK with one number and were reallocated another on arrival in Tasmania.

May Hem

[majm]

Re: Margaret Corcoran Hart, her parental details have come from a transcript - either of her death certificate or church records.

 

Hi there,

I tend to consider that the personal information recorded on d.c.s can be less reliable simply because it cannot possibly have been given directly by the deceased to the person recording it.  The recorder is not responsible for checking that information, only for recording it.  The informant is expected to provide truthful information, to the best of their knowledge.    

And, if given by a family member, then it is given at a time of grief, when their main concerns would be for arranging the funeral, contacting other family members and seeking comfort for their own grief.The informant would be relying on their own knowledge, and if a descendant of the deceased, then that knowledge would be most likely be based on oral history ie their own recollection of their own grandparents names.  

May Hem, may I please ask if you have any other official document that shows that Margaret HART, nee Corcoran was actually the convict transported on the Blackfriar?  

I am becoming confused by your latest post re "We understood that these were the facts.  Maybe the convicts have taken over!"   I have yet to find conclusive evidence that the two particular chaps under consideration [(James) Patrick Hart and Richard Hart] were in fact brothers. 

Cheers,  JM

Hi Debra

Please -no talk about something to explore!  We understood that these were the facts . Maybe the convicts have taken over!
My documents are printouts from QSearch - Tasmanian Convict files.
Within the Hart/Corcoran family relationships it is known that they were all - Kellys, Quinns included -transported to Tasmania, and then all made their way to Victoria. We know for certain that (James) Patrick Hart and Richard Hart were brothers.
Failing these now seemingly doubtful records -which we have never had cause to doubt - the next best course is to find the correct persons.
Maybe through the tip I gave re the gentleman who is a Richard Hart family descendant and historian. He has documents and clippings from Ettie Hart, daughter of Richard Hart, and  who died in 1926. I think he would be the best, quickest and probably most accurate source.
I did wonder whether convicts left the UK with one number and were reallocated another on arrival in Tasmania.

May Hem

[majm]

Hi there,

Re Margaret HART....

From a list of Prisoners reported as Discharged from the Penal Establishments during the week ending 7th December 1892
At Geelong Gaol
HART, Margaret, 5326, tried at Melbourne PS on 26 May 1892, for the offence of idle and disorderly, sentenced to 6 months :  Native of Ireland, with a trade of servant, born 1817, she was 5 ft 1 ½ in tall, with a fresh complexion, grey hair, blue eyes, and had thirteen previous convictions.

From a similar list, discharged during the week ending 11 March 1899
Coburg Gaol, Hart Margaret, 4690/5326, Melbourne PS, 7 March 1898, no visible means & c.  12 months, born Ireland 1824, 5 ft 3 in, fresh complexion, grey hair, blue eyes, slight build, Repeatedly convicted.

Back to an 1888 list
From Geelong Gaol,  Margaret Hart, 5326, South Melbourne PS, tried 22 March 1887, vagrancy, 12 months, Ireland, servant, (on this list she was born 1837), 5 ft 2 inch, fresh complexion, grey hair, blue eyes, TWO previous convictions.

I notice that the prisoner number remains the same, just the year born and the height varies.   These records are from the various Victoria Police Gazettes.

I cannot tell from those official records if that particular Margaret Hart was connected in any way to Margaret Corcoran HART, or to Steve Hart or to Richard Hart, however that particular lady (born circa 1817 -1837 in Ireland)  definitely had a difficult life. 
 
Cheers,  JM