help with Agnes Ellen Williams (maybe not born in Scotland!)

[humanracer]

Hi, you said in your first post that you couldn't find Agnes's birth certificate in scotlandspeople. Her parent's names are shown on her marriage certificate? It is not uncommon for illegitimate children to be registerd under their mother's maiden name & be brought up by another surname (either their actual father's surname or by their step-dad's name.)Could her mother be Mary Ellen Rooney who later married Robert Williams? The only way to discount this Agnes Morris would be to look up her birth certificate as previously suggested. Names given on death certificates are often inaccurate.
flst

I could not find it start with but in my later post I mentioned I found it. It was listed on Scotlandspeople but had a spelling mistake (aegens instead of agnes). I am positive that the brith cert I found is right, it would be a waste of credits to check agnes morris. It is interesting though.

The Rooney thing confuses me. Agnes mother is listed on her birth and death cert as Mary Ellen Plunkett. There is a seperate thread that I made about that person. However on Agnes marriage she is listed as Rooney!. Mary Ellen married 3 times according to her death cert. First marriag was Robert Edward Williams then she married Cringles and finally Anderson. No mention of Rooney. And who is this Morris??

[humanracer]

and thanks for the suggestions flst, it is helping me unravel the mystery.

[flst]

Here's a link to the other post. Interesting to note the name Susanna crops up. This was the christian name of Susanna Morris in the 1891 census!

www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,555287.0.html
Regards,
flst

[Gadget]

Hi

Did you get this~


William and Susannah are in Dalziel, LKS in 1901.

Susanna Teresa Morris ( other names McCluskey, Plunkett and Rooney) dies Dalziel in 1907

I've got a lead on William in Mold, flintshire  but need to check his death.


gnu

[flst]

Could you please recap on Agnes's birth certificate details? What was the address of the place of birth.Why is her mother named as Mary Ellen Williamson?Should it not be Williams? The Scottish certificates should also state m.s.... If it doesn't, then she was single.
As for the Agnes Morris born in 1885 . I spent 5 credits to find out who she was. She's the daughter of William & Christina (nee Simpson) Morris.So she was a red herring!
As for the Mary Ellen Williams, found in 1881census in England,  she is in Bothwell in 1891 & Motherwell in 1901.Her husband is still alive & they have a number of children.The middle 3 were born in Cowdenbeath.
Regards,
flst

[flst]

Well done gnu,
does this mean that Susannah was Mary Ellen's daughter?
flst

[Gadget]

Hi flst 


Not sure. I had a sneak at Susannah's death cert - married to

1 Alexander Plunkett, dock labourer
2 Patrick Rooney, seaman
3 William Morris, coal miner

Parents - Edward McLuskey, Government Surveyor and Margaret M.S McLuskey
~~~~~~~~~~~
Try this ~

The only death that seems to fit for William is back in Fife - did he move back after Susannah died  This one dies 1912, Dunfermline Poor House, from pulmonary pneumonia.  Aged 62.  He is a widower but no wife's name and the clerk of the poor house gave the details.  His parents are given as Edward Morris, labourer and Elizabeth MS Jones (pretty Welsh if you ask me! ) Both deceased.  (Haven't checked the 1911)
 
Looked for marriages for this couple on the North Wales BMD pre 1851 -  3 - Mold, Flintshire;  Corwen, Meirionethshire; and one Montgomeryshire.

Looked at the 1861 Census for a William b.c 1851 with parents Edward and Elizabeth.  This family come up in Leeswood, Flintshire 

Pontblyddyn,  Leeswood  (Mold Sub District)
RG9/4276/48/38

Edward Morris, 37, Ag Lab, b. Mold
Elisabeth, 35, b. Leeswood
Jane, 15
Ellen, 12
William, 9
Catherine, 6
Margt, 4
Elisth, 2
Mary Ann, 1

Children all b. Leeswood

Still there in 1871 - RG10/5649/20/31 and 1881 RG11/5508/109/23 but not afterwards!

Maybe worth following up.


gnu

[flst]

Has William's age been mistranscribed in 1891?
Well done in finding the previous censuses!
I cannot find Mary Ellen's subsequent marriages to a Mr.Cringle & Mr.Anderson.
She is still Mrs.Williams in 1901. I wonder about 1911 census?
humanracer, any further on with this ?
flst

[humanracer]

Could you please recap on Agnes's birth certificate details? What was the address of the place of birth.Why is her mother named as Mary Ellen Williamson?Should it not be Williams? The Scottish certificates should also state nee.... If it doesn't, then she was single.
As for the Agnes Morris born in 1885 . I spent 5 credits to find out who she was. She's the daughter of William & Christina (nee Simpson) Morris.So she was a red herring!
As for the Mary Ellen Williams, found in 1881census in England,  she is in Bothwell in 1891 & Motherwell in 1901.Her husband is still alive & they have a number of children.The middle 3 were born in Cowdenbeath.
Regards,
flst

Hi Flst

The birth cert says Agnes Helen Williams. She was born in Cowdenbeath. Her father was Robert Edward Williams, a coal miner. Her mother is Mary Helen Williams. It says her maiden name was Plunkett. It says her parents married on 18th November 1878 in Wrexham Wales.

I found Mary Ellen's death cert on Scotlands people. She died in Dalziel, Lanark at the age of 89 in 1950. She was the widow of:

1.Robert Edward Williams
2.William Cringles
3.William Anderson

Now on Agnes marriage to James Plunkett, it lists her mother as "Mary Ellen Williams nee Rooney"

Someone found a birth record for Mary Ellen in Liverpool in 1861. Also a marriage record for her marriage to Robert Edward in 1878.

The most interesting thing about it is the fact that Mary Ellen's surname at one point was Plunkett.  Mary Ellen's daughter Agnes as you know married James Plunkett. James Plunkett's father was Alexander Plunkett, born in Ireland but was in Liverpool by 1851. He married a Susannah McCloskey, an Irish girl from Londonderry. When Alexander died in 1863, Susannah McClosky married someone called Rooney!. Alexander's parents were "Alexander Plunkett and Margaret" but I can't find much more about them because of the lack of Irish records beyond the 19th century. Anyway back to Mary Ellen. On her death cert it says her parents were Mary Plunkett (maiden name McClosky) and what I think says "Alexander Plunkett" (yes another one).

So I wonder if the two Plunkett lines are somehow connected. I hope not but would not be surprised.