help with Agnes Ellen Williams (maybe not born in Scotland!)

[humanracer]

Got great help from this board before so thought I would try again.

Agnes Ellen Williams married my great grandfather James Plunkett in 1904. She died in 1936, aged 51. So she was born around 1885. I tried to find her birth cert on scotlandspeople to no avail making me think she was maybe born elsewhere.

The married cert lists her parents as "Robert Williams" and "Mary Ellen Willians"., maiden name Rooney. However the death cert  of Agnes lists her mothers maiden name as Plunkett! Surely a mistake? Also the death cert lists her as "Agnes Helen" rather than "Agnes Ellen".  The death cert also lists her father Robert as "Robert Edward". I think!

Any ideas about where she was born?


Thanks in advance

[MonicaL]

The 1911 census would help you in trying to establish where Agnes was born and from this info, try to trace her family and origins.

Don't worry about Ellen and Helen (and Nellie), they are just different variants of the same name. See this site which is great for first name variants, with a particularly strong Scottish bias www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=ellen

With Agnes for example, you may find Ann(e/ie) or Nancy as a variant.

Monica

[humanracer]

Good call on the census. I found the info there. She was born in Fife but indexed on Scotlandspeople as "AGENS HELEN"!


Sigh....

[bleckie]

Hi humanracer

If you send contact us form to scotlandspeople they will endeavor to correct the index

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?410

Yours Aye
Brucel

[MonicaL]

Get the feeling Agnes' roots may not be straightforward  I think this is her in 1891 with what you have now regarding her birthplace:

William Morris 40, coal miner b. Nrth Wales
Susnna Morris 51 b. Ireland
Agnes Williamson 5 grandchild b. Cowdenbeath, Fife
Patrick Rooney 19 visitor coal miner b. England
James Plunkett 31, visitor, coal miner, b. England
Elizabeth Plunkett 25, Visitor, b. Lassodie Bewth, Fife
Alexander Plunkett 5 Months visitor b. Lochquey, Fife

Address: 17 Minto Street, Auchterderran, Fife

We have Rooney, Williamson (as mentioned earlier with first name variants, you will find similar issues with surnames/spelling variations), Plunkett and Agnes' birth location in Fife....together with a birth from every corner of the kingdom!

Monica

[flst]

 Here's what I've found;
James Plunkett married Elizabeth Gibb in 1889. In 1901 census they are in Beath, Fife.
Elizabeth died in 1902 in Beath, Fife. Can I assume that your Gt.Grandfather was a widower when he married Agnes?
Agnes Morris was born in 1885 in Beath,Fife.This must surely be your Agnes, grandaughter of William & Susanna  Morris (as per 1891 census) If you download her birth certificate, you'll find out her true parentage! 
Regards,
flst

[MonicaL]

Thought there might be twists and turns flst      Well done for figuring out as much as you have to date!

Monica

[humanracer]

Here's what I've found;
James Plunkett married Elizabeth Gibb in 1889. In 1901 census they are in Beath, Fife.
Elizabeth died in 1902 in Beath, Fife. Can I assume that your Gt.Grandfather was a widower when he married Agnes?
Agnes Morris was born in 1885 in Beath,Fife.This must surely be your Agnes, grandaughter of William & Susanna  Morris (as per 1891 census) If you download her birth certificate, you'll find out her true parentage! 
Regards,
flst

Thanks flst. Yes you are right, James Plunkett originally married Elizabeth Gibb. That kind of threw me off because I assumed  Elizabeth was my great grandmother until I found the birth certificate of my grandfather "Robert Edward", confirming Agnes was his actual mother. Interesting marriage considering the huge age gap and the fact he had known her when she was a child.

Confused about the Morris thing though. Agnes birth, marriage and death certs all list her parents as Robert Edward and Mary Ellen Williamson. The interesting thing though is that her mother "Mary Ellen" maiden name is Plunkett! Odd for such as unusual name like mine to have two different lines in my family tree. Hope they aren't related somehow! I found Agnes birth on SP and it was indexed as Agnes Williams (but with a spelling error as mentioned above). Maybe this Agnes Morris/Williamson is someone different??
Any ideas about the Morris family?

[flst]

Hi, you said in your first post that you couldn't find Agnes's birth certificate in scotlandspeople. Her parent's names are shown on her marriage certificate? It is not uncommon for illegitimate children to be registerd under their mother's maiden name & be brought up by another surname (either their actual father's surname or by their step-dad's name.)Could her mother be Mary Ellen Rooney who later married Robert Williams? The only way to discount this Agnes Morris would be to look up her birth certificate as previously suggested. Names given on death certificates are often inaccurate.
flst