Codling/Sayer family - Jews?

[milladrome]

Hello

Been doing research in my family tree and I was wondering if anyone had any information or could point me in the right direction. I've been investigating my paternal great grandmother's side, her name was Ivy Ruth Codling of Norwich (she married Cyril Herbert Smith) and apparently she once told my grandad that there was some Jewish family members (on her side) and that they were in Europe and had been presumably killed in WWII. We're interested in knowing who they were and what happened to them but have no idea how exactly they may have been related to Ivy. I think they were living in France but I'm not 100% on that.

Ivy's parents were Arthur Cornelius N Codling (1875 - 1945) and Ellen Henrietta Sayer (1876 - 1948) and I guess it could be on either side, though I feel more inclined to say it was on her mother's side. Last night I saw my grand aunt who also said that she knew of a Jewess in the family in Norwich so I guess there is someone but I just don't know where to look right now!

Does anyone have any information?

[Koyote19]

hi

There is a similar rumour in my family, and I have "The Norwich Hebrew Congregation 1840-1960 A Short History". There are no Codlings or Sayers mentioned.

Are you looking particularly for information linking to Judaism - or more general census lookups/ birth marriage death info?

It looks as if Ellen Henrietta Sayer's father was from Reading and mother from Taunton so the Norwich Jewess may not be on that side of the family.

If you would like the more general info I will post later.

Regards

Kirstie

PS. The only Jewish connection that I have ever found for myself was that my Great x2 grandfather lived next door to the Synagogue in Norwich - but he was there first, ie. it was built next door to him, and the road name changed to Synagogue Street.

[milladrome]

Hi Kirstie

Yes it's very frustrating to have heard this rumour, the problem is with no indication of how they are related, or how many generations past these people may have possibly moved to Europe I really don't know what I can do. I suppose it could even be a more distant branch in the family where names have changed so.. I guess I don't know what I'm looking for!

I'd like to find out how I could find any links to Jewish family members, I found a website called JewishGen but without more concrete names I guess I won't find anything out anytime soon. Otherwise would it be a good idea to look for possible records of Sayers/Codlings leaving the country between the 1800s/1900s? That may give me some indication?

Any other information you have though would be greatly appreciated.


Camilla

[Koyote19]

Hi again

So far, I have found Ellen Henrietta Sayer and family in the 1881 census.

She is living with her father Alfred P, age 34, born Reading, and her mother Annie, age 38, born Taunton. Alfred is a stationmaster. There are siblings Alfred H (11), Arthur (, Frederick A (6), and George W (1).

Ellen was baptised on25 Feb 1877 at All Saints, South Lynn, Norfolk. At that point her father was a railway porter.

Ellen and Arthur Codling were married in the Aylsham District of Norfolk in the third quarter of 1898.


I will post some details about Arthur in a while.

I'm wondering if rather than  Jewish relatives going overseas to Europe, if it isn't more likely to be the other way round - someone came from Europe, leaving relatives behind, and married into the family. Norwich did have an established Jewish community, which expanded greatly in the nineteenth century.

Regards

Kirstie

[Koyote19]

Hi

Just found a bit more about Arthur and Ellen's marriage at St Georges, Hindolveston

They were "married in the temporary parish church, the parish church being in ruins". There must be a story there...
The date was 12 November 1898. Arthur's full name was Arthur Cornelius Hurn Codling.. He was a joiner.

The witnesses were:
William John Hagon and Harriett Salkind.

The groom's father is listed as Samuel Hurn.

Two points - isn't Salkind a Jewish name? (Witnesses were often relatives).
Also if Samuel Hurn is Arthur's father, where does Codling come from? As you will see when I post more, I have struggled to find a father for Arthur!

My computer is going so slowly tonight...
Regards

Kirstie

[milladrome]

Wow, you've found out a lot more than me! I didn't think of the possibility of people coming from Europe to here.. I guess it sometimes needs fresh eyes for a new perspective!

I had a look at my notes, I only have a mother listed for Arthur, her name is Susanna Codling with her parents being Richard Codling/Susannah Skillings (assumming I'm correct!)

Thank you so much for doing this, it's a great help

[Koyote19]

Me again.

This is where it starts to get complicated.

I have found Arthur aged 6 in the 1881 census, living with his mother Susanna Codling, aged 24 and born in Gunthorpe. She is a dressmaker, and apparently unmarried. There is also an Ernest WH aged one, plus a sister (I think that means to Susanna rather than Arthur) called Rachel (20), and an uncle, Shadrack W Skillings aged 38.

This would seem to indicate that Arthur's parents were not married.

In 1891, Arthur, now a carpenter, is still living with his mother and Ernest and there is a new child Jessie aged 3. Also living with them are Uncle Shadrack William Skillings and Susannah Codling mother/widower/pauper aged 65.

Now there aren't many Shadrack William Skillingses about so having a quick look he seems to be the brother of Susannah Codling (the mother) - there was  Susan Skillings born 1825 to the same parents and Susan/Susanna/Susannah are often used interchangeably.

If I'm not making any sense please say!

I have yet to find a birth for Arthur. Might be worth trying to find out if there were any Salkind/codling/Sayer connections.

Regards

Kirstie

[milladrome]

You're making perfect sense! It definitely is the right one because I believe my grandad remembers Ernest and Arthur, but it definitely does seem like they weren't married.

As for Harriett, I did a quick look and she married in Aylsham late 1905 to a George William Sayer! Haven't got him listed in my tree yet but it looks like the connection is there, going to have a look now to find out

[Koyote19]

Hi yes George William is Ellen's little brother - looks like we've found the connection!

I think Harriet's parents were Beare and Elizabeth Salkind. He was a watchmaker born in Norwich.
Still looking...

K