holders of bishops cleeve

[mollymandysb]

help pls.

charles holder married martha hone in 1810 in bishops cleeve.

he had a henry in 1811 who married in 1837 to a maria and went on to live in brimingham.

i know he had another son charles,  the only charles i can find was born in 1831 cleeve, on 1851 census found one 19 apprentice baker. but cant find him on 1841 census when he would have been 9.

cant seem to find charles and martha anywhere on census.
any help would be appreciated.

molly

[scuda-j]

Do you have any evidence that Charles & Martha lived in Bishops Cleeve? I don't think they had any children baptised there, so perhaps Martha was from BC, but they lived elsewhere after their marriage. Do you know for certain that the Henry born 1811 was their son? How have you linked him to them?

Just realised I'm only looking at baptisms from 1813 onwards, so you probably have an earlier baptism for Henry.

Jane

[scuda-j]

I believe Martha may have died in 1814. There is a burial at Bishops Cleeve on 3rd July 1814 of Martha aged 28, of Stoke Orchard (a village not far from BC). This would fit with the baptism (on familysearch) of Martha Hone at BC on 12th March 1786, parents Edward & Eliz.).

Jane

[scuda-j]

I think the Charles who was born in Bishops Cleeve in the early 1830s, and went on to become a baker, belonged to a different (although possibly related) family. The 19 year-old apprentice baker in 1851 becomes a 27 year-old baker in 1861, and I believe that in 1841 he is in Bishops Cleeve, aged 7, with (presumably) his family: John 64, Phoebe 45, and six other children.

Jane

[mollymandysb]

Hi thanks for that

i am going to start working on it again now.  i was just wondering, as you do, if charles aged 7, was just visiting because he is at the bottom of the page nd not in line with the other children, if you see what i mean.

steph

[scuda-j]

i was just wondering, as you do, if charles aged 7, was just visiting because he is at the bottom of the page nd not in line with the other children,

I know what you mean, but I think it's more likely that the enumerator realised he'd missed him out, so added him to the end of the household. To be honest, I don't see Charles born around 1833 as the son of Charles and Martha. Apart from anything else, I think the 1814 burial I found is very likely to be Martha Hone.

How do you know that Charles and Martha had a son named Charles? Was he mentioned in a will? I wonder if he was older than Henry, rather than younger, perhaps from an earlier marriage?  Just trying to think of possibilities here.

Jane

[mollymandysb]

Hi Jane

henry is a direct relative and as i say he ended up in the birmingham area where he became the owner of pubs/concert halls etc and was very big in the business, the business being taken over by mitchells and butlers later.  it was told to us that henry had a brother called charles and that their dad was charles a farmer or butcher in bishops cleve and that the mother was martha hone married in 1810 in bishops cleeve.

i have found a chares b 1779 in b c married to a sophia retired farmer in 1861.  charles jnr seems to have disappeared, wonder if he died early.  cant find any baptism or christening for him either.  but you know how it is, these sites dont always throw up the correct entry, sometimes they have the transcript wrong and you have to wing it.

steph

[scuda-j]

Hi Steph,

I hope you won't mind word of caution: don't try to find information to verify family "knowledge" - search as you would without that knowledge, and if what you find ends up confirming the family story, then fine; if it leads to a different conclusion, but you are confident in the research you have done, then you are likely to be right. [Having said that, you could well be on the right track]

Was Henry's marriage the one I see in Aston in Q4 1837? If so, do you have the certificate? That really should be your next step, to confirm his father's name and occupation.

Charles junior might have emigrated, of course.

Jane

[scuda-j]

Glos BMD http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/MainMenu.aspx has the death of Charles Holder aged 29 in 1843, in the Deerhurst section of Tewkesbury District. This would put his birth round about 1813, so there is at least a possibility that this could be a son of Charles & Martha. Since finding that, I have discovered that this man was buried at Bishops Cleeve on 24th May 1843 - I think this increases the chance of him being Charles & Martha's son. It may be that his death certificate would be useful, maybe not.

Jane