Author Topic: Genealogical Symbol: backward S  (Read 30592 times)

Offline Eleesavet

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #36 on: Monday 15 August 11 07:14 BST (UK) »
Thank you, JM.

The more I read and understand your replies, the more I am in agreement with you.  I appreciate the effort made by the Chartist in the drawing of the lines.  As you say, not trying to indicate illegitimacy ... merely trying to fit everything correctly into the page.

I will keep looking back to this thread to get further thoughts.  (I'm busy with a houseful of visitors so it wont be as often as I would like.)

Regards.

Liz

Perthshire: MacArthur, Whittet, Mill (Milne), Alexander, Shaw, Pearson, Henderson, Rennie, Comrie, Braid, Ritchie, Roy, MacKillop, Keill, Cumming, Taylor, Marshall, Young, Miller, MacVicar, Murray, Cameron, Croll, Christie, Gloag, Gorrie, Stobbie, Lunnan, Thomson, Crerar, Hepburn.
Dundee: Mill (Milne).
Aberdeen: Mill (Milne).
Skye: MacIntosh, Stewart, MacQueen, Matheson, Morrison, Nicholson, MacLeod, Finlayson.
Peebles: Dickson, Sandilands, Rule, Johnstone.
Edinburgh: Thomson, Sandilands.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #37 on: Monday 15 August 11 07:21 BST (UK) »
Your explanation certainly seems logical JM. I suppose the only question might be, was the person who drew up the genealogical chart aware of the meaning of this symbol?

And maybe if Eleesavet can look at the chart and see if it does look like this has been used to line up the generations and fill in the white blanks of paper? (if I've understood your explanation correctly  ;)) Then this may be the reason for it's use.

Offline majm

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #38 on: Monday 15 August 11 07:51 BST (UK) »
Your explanation certainly seems logical JM. I suppose the only question might be, was the person who drew up the genealogical chart aware of the meaning of this symbol?

And maybe if Eleesavet can look at the chart and see if it does look like this has been used to line up the generations and fill in the white blanks of paper? (if I've understood your explanation correctly  ;)) Then this may be the reason for it's use.


Ruskie,  I agree, it revolves around the occupation/education level/genie knowledge of the person who drew up the chart, and his intended audience.   

The person knew "<" to represent "Less than" ie earlier than...  which may well indicate he/she had an understanding of mathematics symbols and thus also engineering symbols. 

Initially when I first posted (ie before the snip of the chart was posted) I was thinking "reverse S" could be "sinister" (dexter v sinistra and/or sinus  in Latin "right" v "wrong" etc ) and that had led to thoughts re illegitimacy for a birth and thus my family history "mind" took over.  But after seeing the snip, my engineering "mind" has simply taken over...

Cheers,  JM

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Offline Eleesavet

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #39 on: Monday 15 August 11 08:41 BST (UK) »
(Oh dear I think my visitors are going to get a burnt offering (but it is a barbecue after all) as I cant stay away.)

Ruskie, cant look at chart as dont have and never seen.  A copy is with RedMystic, who got from the Clan Donald Centre in Skye, and is kindly transcribing for me.  I'm hoping RM will come along and give us her opinion in consideration of what JM has explained.

I'm familiar with the use of less-than and greater-than symbols.  Surprisingly, I found reference on a web site to being used to indicate direct relationship between ancestors in genealogy.

Liz
Perthshire: MacArthur, Whittet, Mill (Milne), Alexander, Shaw, Pearson, Henderson, Rennie, Comrie, Braid, Ritchie, Roy, MacKillop, Keill, Cumming, Taylor, Marshall, Young, Miller, MacVicar, Murray, Cameron, Croll, Christie, Gloag, Gorrie, Stobbie, Lunnan, Thomson, Crerar, Hepburn.
Dundee: Mill (Milne).
Aberdeen: Mill (Milne).
Skye: MacIntosh, Stewart, MacQueen, Matheson, Morrison, Nicholson, MacLeod, Finlayson.
Peebles: Dickson, Sandilands, Rule, Johnstone.
Edinburgh: Thomson, Sandilands.


Offline majm

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #40 on: Monday 15 August 11 11:05 BST (UK) »
I'm familiar with the use of less-than and greater-than symbols.  Surprisingly, I found reference on a web site to being used to indicate direct relationship between ancestors in genealogy.

Wow,  I have had a good look at the charts drawn up by my forebear in the 1930's in Sydney NSW.  All hand done.   I have reproduced a symbol from one and it is attached.   Notice the rounded nose rather than the pointed V and the ellipse .... 

As I said "Wow" ... I am on a huge learning curve right this minute ...  I am looking at his charts with re-freshed eyes.

Well, for the ones where he could establish the births were at least nine months after the marriage of the respective parents, the ellipses are filled in with ink (blue fountain pen).  (All the writing is in blue ink, all the lines are in indelible pencil.  When he could not establish that nine months, but had found the marriage, he left the ellipse blank.  When he had not found the marriage itself (even though he had found the likely date from the birth registrations of the children) the rounded nose replaced by the sharp V point.  It appears against the eldest child of each marriage.  I had presumed it was a Masonic symbol as many of my forebears were in various Lodges.

I had not ever noticed that convention before on any of my forebears charts. Perhaps it was his own private way of keeping track himself, as it would be easy to fill in the ellipse once the date of the marriage was verified, and of course easy to "round" off the sharp point at the V.  From an historic point of view, his research was fairly accurate, especially considering the limited interest in genealogy and the very limited resources available to him, and the taboo in that era re mentioning any links to convicts or to illegitimacy.

Eleesavet, I am very pleased that you started this thread, and that I replied.  I learn something new everyday at RChat.   

Two words that mean a great deal  "Thank You".


Cheers,  JM   (edited to correct some spelling errors)
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Offline Redroger

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #41 on: Monday 15 August 11 15:42 BST (UK) »
I think part of the problem with these symbols in general is that there is no convention so far as I know, and tree draughtsmen are using symbols known to them with the best of intention, if other people use a symbol or a very similar symbol to mean two different things then confusion is soon apparent.
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Offline majm

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #42 on: Tuesday 16 August 11 03:26 BST (UK) »
I think part of the problem with these symbols in general is that there is no convention so far as I know, and tree draughtsmen are using symbols known to them with the best of intention, if other people use a symbol or a very similar symbol to mean two different things then confusion is soon apparent.

Redroger, I understand, but the chart in question is handwritten and thus I think the "backward S" is simply the tree drafter making sure that the detailed information he has collected is all on the one sheet and it is set out without any ambiguity for any reader, and that could then be folded in half to be stored away in the Clan Donald's records for later generations to then find.  (One sheet, without ambiguity, for consultation at later dates are all key parts of the decisions undertaken by any drafter ... architectural, mechanical engineering, or the graphics designers preparing roadside signage etc)

Re symbols that mean two different things leading to confusion....
I don't think that the backward S has two different meanings.   I don't think that the "<" has two different meanings.  I explain:
"<" starts at the left at a point and the vacant space between the two lines becomes larger as it grows towards the end of the "<" on the right hand side.  Thus things written to the left of it are of a lower number than things written on its right.   So, in relation to family history, it is always fundamental that children are only ever born after their parents are born, thus the "< 1821" for the mother of Donald 1821-1886 is pointing to a marriage for Donald's parents and the marriage had not yet been found by the tree drafter, BUT that he felt it would be sometime dating no later than 1821.   As to why he chose 1821 I can speculate that he may well have found a baptism for Donald in 1821 or perhaps had found the 1886 d.c. for Donald and had done his "sums"....  But that is speculative. 

Yes, my comments re the backwards S issues are also speculative.  They are as logical as my speculations re the <1821 issues.   Redroger, I don't see the confusion.....  I see the Capitalisation of the name DONALD as being far more significant on that sheet.   

There are many everyday symbols that we use and recognise in their context to have a particular meaning.  Some have many meanings.   For example the most simple symbol would be the "."  It's everyday use includes:
a decimal point separating Dollars from Cents (when Aust took on decimal currency in 1966 it was decided this "marker" would be placed NOT at the middle of the line but at the bottom of the line, and that the $ would have but ONE vertical line and not the two vertical lines of the US currency)
a full stop at the end of a sentence, paragraph etc
a series of ....... leaving the un-asked question for others
It's use in TEXT messages is somewhat lacking.

Yet by its daily use, we do all understand it's function within its context.   I have simply offered a genuine explanation for the handwritten backward S within its context.  While there is possibly no definitive answer as to what the tree drafter meant when he used it just that once on that sheet, I offered my response in good faith and based on my combined experiences at both a professional level as a drafter and at my extra-curricula level as a devotee of family history.   These are both of long standing. 

I do so hope that RM is able to comment on my suggestion.

Cheers,  JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #43 on: Tuesday 16 August 11 04:49 BST (UK) »
A sidetrack if I may

Re Confusions.

It is not just symbols that can be mis-understood.  The word “peruse” and the word “disinterest” fascinate me.

To me, “peruse” means to carefully read and examine in minute detail (oh, “minute” can confuse too) ... I mean to study for much longer than sixty seconds (‘seconds’ oh confusion reigns ... “reigns” oh deary me  ;D  ;D  ;D) ... Anyway, sometimes I peruse a thread at RChat and after carefully reading it and thinking about it “mulling over”, I then post.

To me “peruse” also means to glance over rather quickly, without taking time out to study carefully.  Anyway, sometimes I peruse a thread at RChat and “skim” over it, and I then post.    So there’s two “opposing” meanings to “peruse”.    So when I use the word “peruse” I would also need to take into account the context in which I use it and also the likelihood of others using it with either of those meanings.  So I avoid using the word in posts, thus I avoid the confusion/ambiguity.

To me “disinterest” means to have a deep understanding of something ie an educated interest in the subject but not to have, nor seek to have,  any benefit/interest derived from/by that interest.  So a Judge would be required to have a deep understanding of the relevant laws pertaining to a trial over which he/she was presiding.  Thus his/her determination in applying Justice is bound up in his “disinterest” in the evidence and witness statements etc v the laws/regulations/written and unwritten practices etc.   However, I am well aware that the meaning of the word “disinterest” is moving rapidly towards the meaning of the word “uninterested” (ie not interested).   That is, I am well aware that “disinterest” is now coming to mean “not seeking to have any knowledge of”and not anticipating any self benefit/interest.  So there are some RChat threads that I am a disinterested participant, and there are other threads in which I am not interested.   However, this thread is fascinating me, and my disinterest is becoming significant to me.

So, coming back on topic,  I note that the tree drafter’s name is known (see reply #20).  Does his name appear as a family member on the chart? Have any other tree charts been found to have been prepared by him?
 
So his use of symbols, the way he chose to set out (layout)  his B ledger sheet,  his abbreviations, the overall and the minute detail are all part of my disinterest regarding the context of that chart. Of course that context is also dependent on the era in which he prepared it, his own background, his education, his location and the level (over time and experience) of his then involvement in genealogy along with so many other factors.   Similarly the way several different authors of published biographies undertook the family history research about that person and then use their own words to then publish that research can lead to different and at times opposing positions about their subjects. 

That to me is what gives any  person’s own interest in their own family history the chance to seek out and research for themselves via such 21st century tools as RChat and RChatters co-operative efforts. 

The tree chart that RM is working on for Eleesavet is a fine example of RChatters co-operative efforts, and this thread is simply another. 

I thank (usually silently) RChat for the opportunity to express my thoughts and words on every occasion that I post. 

Thank you RChat.

Cheers,  JM
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Offline Ruskie

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Re: Genealogical Symbol: backward S
« Reply #44 on: Tuesday 16 August 11 05:29 BST (UK) »
Perhaps this tree was made for his own pleasure and any marks and symbols were something made up, rather than had a specificed / official meaning.

I use all sorts of little markers and symbols for various things (not just genealogical charts) which would mean nothing to anyone else.

Maybe we are trying to read too much into this backward S and trying to give it a meaning which is was never intended to have?  :-\

Just another way of looking at it ...  :)