Agnes Mary BURNS and Agnes Montgomery MCEWAN - are they the same person?

[louisa b]

Hi Lu
yes the witnesses are named but I've gone and left the cert at my friend's house...will retrieve tomorrow
yes I thought that too about her age at marriage
 I have not found anything for her birth or baptism (don't really know where to start with NZ - will have a look through the resources page)
I think they did move here shortly after marriage, although the first child Edward Foster Shattock was possibly born and died in Auckland - unconfirmed, then Frederick Andrew born Melbourne Nov 1871

actually... (can you hear the cogs turning?) if that date 14/11/1871 for Frederick is correct, then Edward Foster must have been born around Feb 1871 at the latest, so maybe Agnes was pregnant at the time of the marriage...hmm....

thanks for looking, hope you enjoyed dinner!

edit to add - I have not found a birth record on NZ bdm online for Edward - searched from 1869 - 1872, however an online tree on r*web  has his death in Geelong, Victoria in 1876- the more you look, sometimes the more you find
and there are 2 grandchildren of Agnes and Edward with a middle name of Montgomery; curious

[Lucy2]

Hi Lou

I wouldn't be too fazed about the incorrect date/year of the marriage.     (Gosh, by 1885, and with all those children, it would be difficult to remember much in the way of dates.)

Likewise, the "Montgomery" name.   (Was the death informant in each case, an immediate family member ?   Even they get things wrong at times. )

Did Agnes appear on Electoral rolls at all ?  Might be interesting to see what names are shown for her.

~  Lu

[Lucy2]

 I have not found anything for her birth or baptism (don't really know where to start with NZ - will have a look through the resources page)

Hi again

These very early NZ births don't show up on the birth index but it's possible that there are church baptism records available.

Were the McEWANs of the Presbyterian persuasion ?

Did find two births  ...

NZ BDM (online)

1856 - McEWAN - John Bowman - Reg. at Auckland

and (from Early Auckland Births - compiled by Shirley Kendall)

21 May 1850 (not stated whether birth or baptism date)
McEWAN - Andrew - s/o Isaac (occ. baker) and Janet (nee BOWMAN)

[louisa b]

OK, have the marriage certificate in front of me

witnesses
J. M. Barnes  very flamboyant squiggles around the initials but I think it's J M (and definitely not BURNS) and
E. Brown

I wonder if the Rev. William John Dean was Presbyterian?
there is no mention of the religion on the cert

[Lucy2]

Hi

Rev. William John DEAN (b. 1826) - came to NZ in 1867.

  ....    of the Primitive Methodist Church.

[I know some preachers of this era were a bit suspect ... but Rev. Dean gets a good "rap" in an online biog. ]   

[louisa b]

Hello Lu
thanks for those birth records, I'm pretty sure they are brothers of Agnes

I managed to check the electoral rolls, and interestingly, in 1903, 1914 and 1924, she is listed as Agnes Montgomery Shattock

looked at the Vic BDM indexes
of the 9 children born in Victoria (from the info on the parents death certificates etc)
4 weren't registered -or I just can't see them - quite possible
one had mother Agnes Byrnes, 3 had Agnes Mary Burns, and one had Agnes McEwan

and of 5 deaths i saw on the index (deaths of the children as adults), 3 named her as Agnes McEwan and 2 as Agnes Montgomery

ANYWAY..curiosity got the better of me so I downloaded the death certificate of Edward Foster Shattock
died 14 Jan 1876, Autumn St, Ashby, Geelong
age 5 years
father Edward Shattock
mother Agnes Shattock maiden surname MCEWAN
born Auckland NZ; 2 1/2 years in Victoria

and the birth certificate of Frederick Andrew, the first child born in Aus, states:
born 14 Nov 1871 Reilly St, Melbourne
registered 21 Feb 1872
father Edward SHATTOCK accountant age 25 born London
mother Agnes SHATTOCK formerly BYRNES age 24 born United States of America
married October 1869 Auckland NZ
sibling Edward age 1 year

I am beginning to get suspicious here
they perhaps had Edward very shortly after the marriage; and they must have somehow come to Aus between Oct 1870 and Nov 1871 - but they are not on the PRO Vic shipping list - I suppose they may have used a false name?

thanks again

[Lucy2]

Hi Lou

Mmm ... so of her own volition, Agnes altered her middle christian name.    Interesting, huh. 

mother Agnes SHATTOCK formerly BYRNES age 24 born United States of America

  ^ ^  I think you have good reason to be suspicous ... USA birthplace  !!!        

And I take back what I said earlier about "not being too fazed re: the incorrect year of marriage ".   
   
I can now see (well, I think I can  ) ...  that some subtle attempts have been made to disguise Agnes'  true identity.

~   Lu
                                                                  see next   >>

[Lucy2]

Hi

Now the resource I was using to look for a previous marriage for Agnes to .... surname BURNS (and var.) doesn't distinguish between bride and groom and I'd found an odd entry for "McEWAN - Agnus".    Overlooked it thinking it was a mistranscription for "Angus" (a fella).    Puzzling too, because the spouse's christian name was returned as "Bazett" (kind of feminine sounding ?).

Agnus McEWAN - Bazett WATKINS -- 1869

[And the NZ BDM online, has the same listing / spelling. ]

But a little more digging, revealed this marriage notice. 

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz

"Daily Southern Cross" (Auckland) - 5 July 1869 - Marriages

WATKINS - McEWAN   ... on 24 June at the residence of the bride's mother, Grey Street, by Rev. R.F. Macniccol, Bazett WATKINS to Agnes McEWAN, both of this city.

Interestingly, there is a further marriage for Bazett WATKINS.

Bazett WATKINS - Mary Rina HERA -- 1879

BUT ... as far as I can see ... no death for Agnes WATKINS between 1869 and 1879 !

[Bride married at her mother's residence  ... and Janet McEWAN was of course a widow at this time.  ]

What do you reckon    

~  Lu

[louisa b]

that is all very odd
is there any way of knowing if Janet McEwan lived in Grey St??
do you think it would help for me to get that official cert of that McEwan-Watkins marriage?

actually, I saw mentioned somewhere on another post about "intention to marry" documents - that could be useful?

the death record for Ernest Shattock on the Vic index states the mother's name as Agnus McEwan (phonetic I guess)