Author Topic: Red Cross Way Southwark London  (Read 8695 times)

Offline teresaevans

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Red Cross Way Southwark London
« on: Thursday 28 July 11 09:43 BST (UK) »
Hi
I am conducting research into the history of a disused burial ground that is situated in Redcross Way, and bordered by Union Street, Borough, Southwark, London.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has details about what buildings whether factories or warehouses once stood on this site in or around 1928/29. The burial ground is directly opposite to what used to be known as St. Saviour's school.

Many thanks in advance.

Offline tazzie

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Re: Red Cross Way Southwark London
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 28 July 11 10:25 BST (UK) »


  Hi

 welcome to Rootschat..
 Is this the old Cross Bones site?
 Loads of info come on on the site when googled and most state that the locals opposed building of any kind on the site and that it was once home to a fairground for a while until local objection.
 Earliest record is of John Stow 's 1598 survey of London and the last burial in 1853. It was sold as a building site in 1883 but proved an unpopular move with the locals and the following year the sale was withdrawn.

  Tazzie
Liscoe -all
Green/Simpson/Underwood-Beds
Walker/Foulkes/Fookes/Fooks/Hedges/Lamborne-Bucks.
Stanton/Pattrick/Cooper/Fitzjohn/Holland/Spalding-London
 Rewallin/Underwood -Devon
 Casbolt-London/Cambridge
 Favell/Favel - Lincs-Beds

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   www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline teresaevans

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Re: Red Cross Way Southwark London
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 28 July 11 12:45 BST (UK) »
Hi Tazzie,

Thank you for the welcoming.

Yes it is indeed the Cross Bones site which you may be interested to know was sold again in 1892. It is my understanding that the District Railway Company bought it at an auction.

I am aware that there is much local opposition to developing this site, but my aim is to present an argument to the Secretary of State that it was unlawful to build in a disused burial ground in 1928 and that it would be unlawful now.

If you come across any information around 1928 I would be grateful if you could send this to me please.

Regards
Teresa

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Red Cross Way Southwark London
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 28 July 11 13:56 BST (UK) »
A very worthwhile thing that you are doing Teresa - good luck with it.

And welcome to Rootschat.  :)

This burial ground has a bit of a cult following built up around it from what I understand. Won't sheer local pressure and objections prevent any building on the site?

Have you looked for maps of the area in 1928 to see if they show any buildings on the site?



Offline teresaevans

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Re: Red Cross Way Southwark London
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 28 July 11 14:49 BST (UK) »
Thank you.

I doubt it. It is far too large a project with a lot of money involved. If I really believed it would then I might likely drop what I am doing.

I have looked at maps made after 1928. The odd thing is that the maps I have looked at simply depict the burial ground and nothing else. I know that this is not the case. Strange. It is like a map made in 1702 by a guy of the name of Strype. He makes no record of any burial ground being there at all, so I am not confident that a map will give me the answers. I sense that I must establish what was actually built. I do not reside in London and appears that I may need to make a trip there to examine archives at the South London Press, unless of course some information comes from this direction.

Do you live local. I used to live in Redcross Way when I was a kid.

Offline davidft

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Re: Red Cross Way Southwark London
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 28 July 11 16:17 BST (UK) »
......my aim is to present an argument to the Secretary of State that it was unlawful to build in a disused burial ground in 1928 and that it would be unlawful now.


Not sure about this.

I know about 20 or so years ago they moved bodies from a crypt in a Church in Southwark so that it could be coverted into flats. If they could do that it seems reasonable that they could build on a disused burial ground if the bodies were removed first. Indeed I am sure this appeared in one of the Who Do You Think You Are, or similar programmes. I think in the programme they got assistance from the Metropolitan Archives.

Therefore I think it may be worth contacting the Metropolitan Archives to see what help they can give.

It may also be worth contacting Sands Films as they hold the Rotherhithe Picture Library that has lierally thousands of old photos that may have something in them of use.

http://www.sandsfilms.co.uk/

Another possibility is to contact the Ordnance Survey and ask them if they have, or know of, very large scale maps of the area for the period as these should show the outline of all buildings on the site. These are of a scale that show all individual buildings even individual terraced houses.

Hope that is of use
James Stott c1775-1850. James was born in Yorkshire but where? He was a stonemason and married Elizabeth Archer (nee Nicholson) in 1794 at Ripon. They lived thereafter in Masham. If anyone has any suggestions or leads as to his birthplace I would be interested to know. I have searched for it for years without success. Thank you.

Offline teresaevans

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Re: Red Cross Way Southwark London
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 28 July 11 17:18 BST (UK) »
Thank you for this information davidft. I will certainly check out this site.

In response to your comments, the law in relation to moving bodies from a crypt is not the same as laws pertaining to disused burial grounds and open spaces Acts. It is much too complicated to go into here.

Thanks again.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Red Cross Way Southwark London
« Reply #7 on: Friday 29 July 11 01:08 BST (UK) »
There was an interesting History Cold Case featuring one of the skeletons from the graveyard - did you see the programme?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00slp71

I was also thinking about Ordnance Survey maps in the hope that they may show buildings and maybe even name them. Can you explain why you are searching for a map specifically for 1928/9? Do you believe that there were buildngs there at that time?

I did look online for a map of around 1928, but I couldn't find anything suitable. Southwark Libraries have some online maps, but no images appeared when I tried to access them. You may like to contact Southwark Libraries: http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/200161/local_history_library

These local libraries can be very helpful, especially if you tell them what you are doing. I'm sure they will be sympathetic - I can't imagine any individuals, especially locals, agreeing with the development of this site. So you're sure to have them on side. If they do have appropriate maps, they should be able to send you images electronically, and save you a trip to London.

Do you live local. I used to live in Redcross Way when I was a kid.
I live in Australia Teresa.  ;D

Are you aware of the recent battle to save the Cleveland Street workhouse? http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/dickens-workhouse-saved-from-demolition/story-e6frfku0-1226021453832 I know it's not the same (as I believe the building will still be developed in some way), but you may wish to contact the organizers of that to see if they can give you any tips about how they won the battle. In the end I think it was the (likely but still not 100% proved) association with Dickens that helped them. I don't know that you can get an angle like this to save the burial ground ...
Aimery de Malet Roquefort
on behalf of the Cleveland Street Workhouse Group
www.clevelandstreetworkhouse.org
There may be other more appropriate examples you can find and people who will be willing to help. This is a very recent one, and a rare victory, which is why it came to mind.

Do you have all the appropriate organisations such as English Heritage involved? [You also need the backing of a few high profile celebrities. And of course much kudos gained by getting the Royal newlyweds on board.]

I'm not sure how useful they are, but do you have an online petition? (I'll sign it  ;))

Please keep in touch and let us know how you get on.


Offline Valda

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Re: Red Cross Way Southwark London
« Reply #8 on: Friday 29 July 11 08:51 BST (UK) »
Hi

Not sure how you would put a legal case together based on the Acts in place at present for changing the use of burial grounds - it looks more an argument on the historical importance of the remaining unbuilt on part of the burial ground and the importance to the local community and like other similar burial grounds in London it should be kept as a green space.
That would seem to need the land to be redefined as it appears to have permission to be built on as indeed most of it already has been.

'my aim is to present an argument to the Secretary of State that it was unlawful to build in a disused burial ground in 1928 and that it would be unlawful now.'

Many parts of London are built on disused burial sites. It is not illegal to do so and was not in 1928/9 if the law was followed.

'Unless another statutory provision applies, the Burial Act 1857, section 25, regulates the exhumation of human remains interred in England and Wales. Section 25 provides that, if human remains are to be exhumed from consecrated ground, that is ground consecrated by the Church of England, and are to be reinterred in consecrated ground then a faculty, an ecclesiastical licence, must be obtained from the Chancellor of the Consistory Court, the ecclesiastical court of the diocese.  If the remains are not in consecrated ground, or are not to be reinterred in consecrated ground, then a licence from the secretary of state of the relevant government department, formerly the Home Office presently the Ministry of Justice, must be obtained.'


The burial act came into being because churchyards in cities and industrial towns had been overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of burials occurring in them on a daily basis and had become a severe health risk. Many were subsequently cleared along with their crypts and have either become green garden areas or built upon for further urban development.
Reading accounts of the state of the burial ground in 1845 (complaint to the Board of Health by one of the schools) that was certainly the case for Crossbones.


Open Spaces Act 1906 (from the Diocese of Rochester)

'Section 11(3) permits the removal of tombstones and monuments in a disused burial ground only (i.e. one no longer used for interments whether or not the ground has been partially or wholly closed for burials under the provisions of a statute or an order in council). If the ground is consecrated, a licence or faculty must first be obtained from the Bishop (section 11(4). The local authority, at least three months before moving any tombstones or monuments, must prepare and deposit for public inspection a statement of the names and dates on the tombstones to be moved; give notice of the proposals at least three times in a local newspaper and to any person known or believed to be a near relative of a person commemorated on the tombstone; and place a notice of the proposals on the door of any church attached to the burial ground.'

http://www.rochester.anglican.org/pdf_files/dac/Maintenance%20%20Old%20burial%20grounds.pdf



Isabella Holmes (London Burial Grounds Notes on their history) describes 'Crossbones' in 1895

'This was made at least 250 years ago, "far from the parish church", for the interment of the low women who frequented the neighbourhood. It was subsequently used as the pauper ground and was crowded to excess. Nevertheless two schools were built in it. The remaining piece is about 1,000 square yards. It has frequently been offered for sale as a building site and has formed the subject for much litigation. It is made partial use of by being let for fairs, swings etc. It was sold as a building site in 1883, but not having been used by 1884, the sale was declared (under the Disused Burial Grounds Act) null and void.'

Many poor Irish were buried there.


Taken from Graveyard London Lost and Forgotten Burial Grounds

There has been periodic building work since in the 1920s (in 1928 40 skeltons were reinterred at Brookwood Cemetery) and the 1990s when the Jubilee Line was extended ('claimed' the Museum of London removed 148 skeltons). In 2002 Southwark Council refused planning permission for three office-blocks to be erected on the remaining unbuilt part of the burial ground. The decision was over turned on appeal which means in essence that Transport London who appear to be the present owners have permission to develop the site. 


The reinterment of skeltons at Brookwood Cemetery in 1928, if that did occur, would appear to show the law was being followed.        

http://www.brookwoodcemetery.com/london-parishes.htm


London Burial Grounds website

'Building work in the 1920s led to the exhumation of many bones, as did building work on the new substation for the Jubilee Line extension in the 1990s. Detailed archaeological work from this time and a general history of the ground is described in The Cross Bones Burial Ground (Museum of London Archaeological Service 1999).' 


The 1999 report should give some detail of the building work that went on in 1928 and the exhumations that occurred then and certainly must do so for the work in the 1990s when the Museum of London was involved.    



Regards

Valda                   
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