The Holyland thread!

[Deleted Tootpaste]

Hello,

Haven't been on this thread for a while.

With the wife of a distant Holyland cousin in NZ, we have figured out that the Holyland name, for our line, being "adopted" in 1863 (see previous entries on this thread) via Fulshaw Holyland -> Simeon Norman (Holyland) isn't as simple as we thought.

Simeon Norman was born in 1860 to mother Jane Norman. Her mother was Frances Norman Nee Holiland/Holyland b. 1811 in Barsby, Leicestershire.

Frances' parents I have as:

John Holyland b. 1770 - Ratby.
Judith Holyland Nee Parker b. 1770 - Queniborough.

The odd thing is that Frances appears to be a Holyland and not a "Holiland" (as mentioned on her marriage record).

Back to Fulshaw Holyland (1843-1919) - who married Frances' daughter Jane Norman and adopted little Simeon Norman (1860-1902) in 1863. Simeon became Simeon Norman Holyland thereafter (not sure this was an "official" adoption). Simeon was my 2 x GGD.

Fulshaw Holyland is related to John Holyland through his father, also, Fulshaw Holyland (1814-1877). Fulshaw Snr's father being William Holyland (1783-1857). William Holyland is the brother of aforementioned John Holyland b.1770.

So this John Holyland is my 5th GGD through being the father of Frances. But he is also Fulshaw Holyland Jnr's Great Uncle. So I have this strange situation of Fulshaw Jnr marrying my 3 x Great Grandma and adopting my 2 x GGD.

This is probably not 100% concrete - but it is pointing to me having a bloodline to the Desford Holylands. Previously I thought I wasn't related to the "Holyland's" at all, as Simeon was actually born to father unknown.

I think there must have been some strange goings on in the family...

And (also from wills), that William (d 1762) seems to have had a brother Thomas (also a butcher in Desford), a brother John, a baker in Dunton, and a brother Christopher of Market Bosworth, who was a publican.

Then there was another William who was a butcher and farmer in Desford, who had a brother Richarrd, also a butcher, and whose will was dated 1788;

I don't seem to have much about the next generation in Desford, probably because my lot had left there by then.

[Annie65115]

Thooper fly, I'm not too sure about your lines being as linked as you think.

Fulshaw's parents are listed as William and Hannnah nee Jakes. But I can't find any baptisms that fit the suggested age on the census for William. Furthermore, on the 1851 census it says he was born in Reading, Berkshire! That seems a bit left-field --unless that's truly what he said!

There is the marriage earlier of William H and Mary Fulshaw; they were the parents of the older Fulshaw/Fulcher, b in Desford in 1748. He went to London, as did other Holylands; I know of several Holylands from the Leicester branches who ended up there. Using the Fulshaw name again would suggest to me that your Fulshaw descends from that same line, or one of the lines close to it (I know, from documents, that Leic and London cousins were in contact; and the widow of one of Fulshaw's  cousins named him as her executor for example).

What do you think?

[Deleted Tootpaste]

Errr... am I allowed to go and face the wall to think about it for a bit? 

Thooper fly, I'm not too sure about your lines being as linked as you think.

Fulshaw's parents are listed as William and Hannnah nee Jakes. But I can't find any baptisms that fit the suggested age on the census for William. Furthermore, on the 1851 census it says he was born in Reading, Berkshire! That seems a bit left-field --unless that's truly what he said!

There is the marriage earlier of William H and Mary Fulshaw; they were the parents of the older Fulshaw/Fulcher, b in Desford in 1748. He went to London, as did other Holylands; I know of several Holylands from the Leicester branches who ended up there. Using the Fulshaw name again would suggest to me that your Fulshaw descends from that same line, or one of the lines close to it (I know, from documents, that Leic and London cousins were in contact; and the widow of one of Fulshaw's  cousins named him as her executor for example).

What do you think?

[Deleted Tootpaste]

Have come away from the Dragons Den wall and have finally got around to looking at my tree.

The 1851 "William Hobyland" census does supposedly put a spanner in the works.

However, I have my 4 x Great Grandma Frances Holiland (also mentioned elsewhere as being Holyland) born 1811 in Barsby. She married a James Norman. Their daughter Jane Norman had a son to father unknown (Simeon Norman) in 1860 at Rothley Workhouse. In 1863 she married Fulshaw Holyland Jnr (1843-1919). Little Simeon became Simeon Norman Holyland.

The above information is correct as far as I can see.

I have Frances' parents as:

John Holyland
Birth 1770 • Ratby Leicestershire

and

Judith Parker
Birth ABT 27 MAY 1770 • Queninborough, Leicestershire, England

This  part is perhaps a bit shaky. But it is odd that we have Frances being a Holyland and her daughter ending up marrying a Holyland. From later newspaper reports, it appears their marriage wasn't a happy one. She ended up leaving Fulshaw & Simeon sometime between 1871 & 1884 - when she turns up in Nottingham.

Meanwhile, Fulshaw is recorded as being in the military in 1881. He fathers children with his "lodger" Elizabeth Gee - the first one being Harry Gee Holyland in 1885. Elizabeth already had children from a previous relationship.

From the censuses & certificates I have... In 1881 - Fulshaw is listed as a widdower. Elizabeth Gee as a "boarder" and the 4 Gee children are listed as sons/daughters of the head : Fulshaw. So it appears Jane has been wiped from Fulshaws life.

Later on, Jane remarries in Nottingham in 1884. On the marriage certificate I have she lies about her age (making herself younger for her new husband) and also lists herself as a widow. Her father is mentioned as being James Norman (deceased) - which fits in correctly.

A string of strange situations.

I think increasingly that the marriage between Fulshaw Holyland and Jane Norman was one of convenience. Somehow there must be a link between Frances & Fulshaw. Even if I have got my link wrong - I am of the opinion that something fishy has gone on, as is my distant cousin in NZ who is related to Simeon Norman Holyland's sister Charlotte Norman Holyland.

The Norman surname came from Jane, but by the time my Great Uncle was born in 1919 the "Norman" had become a middle name. His name was also Simeon Norman (the 3rd generation of Simeon Normans) - but he was known in my family as Uncle Norman!!!

John.

Thooper fly, I'm not too sure about your lines being as linked as you think.

Fulshaw's parents are listed as William and Hannnah nee Jakes. But I can't find any baptisms that fit the suggested age on the census for William. Furthermore, on the 1851 census it says he was born in Reading, Berkshire! That seems a bit left-field --unless that's truly what he said!

There is the marriage earlier of William H and Mary Fulshaw; they were the parents of the older Fulshaw/Fulcher, b in Desford in 1748. He went to London, as did other Holylands; I know of several Holylands from the Leicester branches who ended up there. Using the Fulshaw name again would suggest to me that your Fulshaw descends from that same line, or one of the lines close to it (I know, from documents, that Leic and London cousins were in contact; and the widow of one of Fulshaw's  cousins named him as her executor for example).

What do you think?

[Snorbins]

My great great grandfather Thomas Lant married Ann Holyland in 1863; I have her parents as Thomas Holyland and Harriet Mooring. But not sure

[Annie65115]

Thomas Holyland and Harriet Mooring had 5 children, as far as I know, including Ann, born 14 June 1844 in the Market Bosworth reg district.

The family lived in Cadeby/Osbaston, and I think that Ann married William Poyser in Cadeby in 1867. subsequent censuses match Ann Poyser's age and POB with this Ann Holyland.

In the 1871 census, Ann Lant gives her birthplace as Leicester, which I'd take to mean Leicester town. Do you have her marriage cert?

Edited to add: Ann LANT age 33 was buried at Welford Rd in 1877; is this the right Ann? Because what's interesting is that she shares a grave with several people with the surname HOLLAND (not Holyland!) -- any misspellings going on?

Further edited -- looking at the GRO records, the mmn in some of the birth registrations was Holland, in others, Holyland.

[Snorbins]

Annie65115,
Ann Lant (Holyland) did die in 1877 on 1st March, aged 33.

The marriage certificate (05/09/1863) has Ann as 19 years old, so 14 years on she dies at 33. Her fathers name on the marriage certificate is Peter Holyland (deceased) and that is where I started to worry because there never was (as far as I am aware) a Peter Holyland. As he was deceased did she know her father.

Now I have a birth certificate for a Ann Holyland born 4 June 1845, born to Ann Holyland, no fathers name. Born in Thurlaston, Leicestershire.

I also have a birth certificate for Anne Holyland born 14 June 1844 showing Thomas and Harriett as the parents. Born in Atherstone, Leicestershire. This one would tie up with the age at marriage.

[Annie65115]

What occupation did she give for “peter holiland”?

If she was Thomas and Harriet’s daughter, why would she give her father as Peter?

[Snorbins]

It looks like ‘malter’, but not easy to read.

As I said her father was deceased and maybe she didn’t remember him OR she was illegitimate and no father was named? Wanted to be able to give a name so made one up?

I gave up on the Holyland name a few years ago but feel enthused again!