Lookup: Flixton Parish Registers

[Pudding1]

Hello -

Does anyone have access to the Flixton Parish Registers to provide further information on my 5 x great grandfather James Kelsall Penny who was baptised in Flixton on 4th April 1742 (Familysearch P00522-1)?

I believe that he is the illegitimate son of James Kelsall and Mary Penny, but cannot take his line further back.  Any information on James, his parents and / or other siblings (whether full or half) would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

Pudding1

[Barbara.H]

Hi Pudding1,

I can't get to the original registers (believe they at Trafford local studies?) but the Lancashire Parish Register Society have transcribed them into books, and I can look their transcription up for you when I go to the library tomorrow.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/lprs/parishes.shtml

Should at least confirm parents' names for you

  Barbara

[garstonite]

Record Pilot has
James Kelsal  ...   4th April 1742  father James Kelsal / mother Mary Peny
 KELSAL and PENY ....whether they were the original spellings or a mistranscription
allan

[Pudding1]

Thank you to both replies ...

In later years, James Kelsall Penny went by this spelling, referring to his mother as Mary Penny and giving all his children the "middle" name of Kelsall, hence my adoption of this format.  However, given the rather creative views of the time, I'm willing to consider any options around spelling!

I'm in Yorkshire so depend on the online registers to point me in the right direction ... James later moved to Northwich so all my visits thus far have been to Cheshire.

I've found a potential father in a James Kelsall, christened 17 October 1726 in Northenden, Cheshire, making him around 16 when James the younger was born but I don't know if I'm totally off-track.  I'm hoping that the actual register will give some clues as to the ages of the parents and parish of the father, so I greatly appreciate Barbara's offer to look it up.

Best regards,

Janet (aka Pudding1)

[Barbara.H]

Hi Janet and Allan,

Not much to go on with the register entry I'm afraid - the spelling is
James son of James Kelsal and Mary Peny, 4 April 1742.  There were other Penny/Peny names in the transcript, and Kelsall/ Kelsal/ Kelsey/Kelshaw variants as well. Neither of them married at St Michaels Flixton but you possibly worked that out already.

What was noticable was that most of the other Kelsall and Penny entries gave abode as Carrington, so that's a possible abode for these two as well.

The Penny surname:
There was a Thomas Penny of Carrington married to Mary, who had several children baptised between 1732-1754. There was also a Lydia Penny that married Thomas Yates in 1747, so Thomas and Lydia could be possible relatives of your Mary.
There was a possible burial for your Mary Penny, 7 Jan 1766; unfortunately no age was given. There was also a burial of an elderly Mary Penny that might be a relative "Mary Penny bur. 20 Oct 1752, age 84 and upward, pauper of Carrington"

Genuki describes Carrington as 'a township in Bowdon parish' and in Family Search there are baptisms at Bowdon for
 
Mary Penny d. Thomas Penny 2 Apr 1719
Lydia Penny d. of Thomas Penny 9 Nov 1821

The Kelsall surname:
There were quite a lot more Kelsalls in the Flixton book, mainly living in Carrington again and with many spelling variations. There were several James Kelsalls too! One married to a Lydia, another to a Betty (these from children's baptisms, not from marriage records)

Looking at Bowdon on Family Search again, there is a possible baptism for James Kelsall, 16 Nov 1714 son of Reginald Kelsall.

I didn't have time to look at volume one of the Flixton transcripts (covers BMDs 1570-1730) so next week I'll have a look at that for you - but I think a Bowdon/Carrington connection looks quite promising at the moment.

  Barbara

[Pudding1]

Hello Barbara and Allan -

This information is invaluable, thank you very much!

I'm currently leaning towards Mary christened 1719, died 1766, daughter of Thomas, sister of Lydia for the following reasons:

I have a copy of the will her son James wrote in 1789; given that he named each of his children, their spouses and his wife, I am assuming that his mother would have been included had she been alive.

I have a Thomas Penny in my tree, son of James Penny and brother of Robert, born 12th November 1692; all were residents of Great Bowden and Thomas is of an age where he COULD be Mary's father, though the only information I had for him are his birth and christening dates.  He was one of the individuals I gathered after reading the will for James, vicar of Great Budworth in the late 17th century.

Geographically speaking, would this be realistic, or too much of a stretch for the times?

Although I can't lay my hands on the source at the moment, I'm sure James contuinued to refer to his mother as Mary Penny, so I didn't expect to see a marriage for her.

Though Mary is far too common a name for my liking, the elderly Mary buried in 1752 is of the right age to be Thomas' mother and wife of James.  Unfortunately, my system crashed last summer and I lost my transcript so I'll now have to go and dig out details of James' will  However if memory serves, he left the equivalent of over £250k in today's money so to my mind, it is unlikely, though not impossible, that his widow would be a pauper.

Speculating purely on ages, James, son of Reginald seems to be a good starting point for the father.  I'll use this information as my theories for now and try to prove and / or disprove from onine sources but I'm very much looking forward to anything that comes out of the Flixton transcripts.

Best regards,

Janet

[Barbara.H]

Went back to look at the Flixton registers again! 

Flixton registers vol. 1 (1570-1730)
Kelsalls - only two entries
27 Jan 1725 Baptism Jonathan, son of Jonathan Kelsal, born 4 Jan 1725
31 May 1658 marriage John Mather to Margery Kelshawe

so your James Kelsal that had the child with Mary Penny, he wasn't baptised at Flixton.

Penny surname
There were a lot of Pennys in the earlier volume, far more than I could write down! The earliest was a baptism for Elizabeth Penny, daughter of Thomas Penny of Carrington, 21 May 1659. Most of the Pennys gave abode as Carrington. The name Thomas gets used over and over through the generations, There wasn't an obvious parent for your Mary Penny, so the Mary baptised 1719 at Bowdon is still looking the best bet.

Trouble is, because the Pennys are long established in Carrington, and use the name Thomas over several generations, I think it weakens the case for your Mary Penny being a grandchild of Rev James Penny of Great Budworth. There were two Thomas Pennys baptised in Cheshire in the 1690s:
Thomas son of James and Ann, Great Budworth, 12  November 1692
Thomas son of Thomas (no mothers name), Bowdon, born 10 Aug 1698, bap 29 Aug 1698

I think geographically, the Bowdon one is more likely to be Mary's father, and he can't be the vicar's son as the vicar died 1694.

However, going back to Family Search, if you look for baptisms of children, surname Penny, father Thomas, in Bowdon between 1715 and 1735, there are some with parents Thomas and Mary and some with parents Thomas and Alice.  So there might well be two Thomas Pennys in Bowdon to choose from!

Does the vicar's will mention anyone in the Carrington/Bowdon area? If so he might still be a relative as Great Budworth and Bowdon are only about 12 miles apart.

  Barbara

[Pudding1]

Thanks, Barbara -

I think it's now reached the stage where it's gong to be really complicated to sort them out!  If the register doesn't mention occupations (and even then, the chances of repetition would be high) or the mother's name, there may be no way of knowing which is which.

I haven't yet looked for the will but I have managed to determine all the vicar's children and one other grandchild (William, son of James).  So, for now, I'll treat them as separate families with the assumption that the relationship goes further back (my father being highly sceptical that anyone in his family would have been that religious!).

Would the easiest place to research the Bowden / Carrington registers be in Chester?

Best regards,

Janet

[Barbara.H]

Yes, they should be at the Cheshire archives.
And there's Trafford local studies in Stretford, but it doesn't say on their website what they've got - it just says 'microfiche and microfilm'  http://www.trafford.gov.uk/leisureandculture/libraries/localandfamilyhistory/

Or try posting on the Rootschat Cheshire board for help with Bowdon and Carrington. If you get in touch with JDGen the moderator, she covers both Lancashire and Cheshire boards so I'm sure she'll help you link this post with a Cheshire one if you need to

good luck!
  Barbara