Author Topic: Jewish community Diss 1700's  (Read 6102 times)

Offline Marmalady

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Jewish community Diss 1700's
« on: Wednesday 29 June 11 09:38 BST (UK) »
My 4x gr grandmother always appeared as Maria Clark bn approx 1800  Diss Norfolk on the censuses. The birth cert of her youngest child revealed her maiden name as Levey

Have finally tracked her down -- she married as Judith Maria Levy but appears to have been bpt as Judith Levi 24 Apr 1799 Diss. Father Moses Levi, mother Frances Fuller
So far, have not found the marriage of Moses & Frances apart from submitted entries on the IGI . Family search gives the bpts of several siblings from 1790 onwards

Does anyone know how large a jewish community there would have been in the area at the time? Would there have been a synagogue that would have any more records?
Wainwright - Yorkshire
Whitney - Herefordshire
Watson -  Northamptonshire
Trant - Yorkshire
Helps - all
Needham - Derbyshire
Waterhouse - Derbyshire
Northing - all

Offline Jeuel

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Re: Jewish community Diss 1700's
« Reply #1 on: Monday 11 July 11 20:47 BST (UK) »
If the family were orthodox Jews, Judith would not have been baptised.  Jews don't baptise their children.

I can't see any links to a Jewish community or a synagogue in Diss and I'd be quite surprised if there was one.

However, if you contact Norfolk Records Office they should be able to tell you if they hold Jewish records.  But I think it likely that this family either were no longer orthodox Jews who practiced Judaism, or they just had Biblical names.
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Offline Marmalady

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Re: Jewish community Diss 1700's
« Reply #2 on: Monday 11 July 11 21:16 BST (UK) »
If the family were orthodox Jews, Judith would not have been baptised.  Jews don't baptise their children.


Yes i do realise that

I am assuming that Moses was assimilated into the local community by marrying a local girl and baptising the children in the local parish church.
But his surname always appears in the Diss registers as the Jewish version Levi, and his children all have Jewish/Old Testament names - Moses, Isaac, Samuel, Benjamin, Judith, Elizabeth. I think it more likely he is of Jewish origin rather than just having a liking for biblical names.  The name isnt anglicised to Levy until the middle of the 1800s

Even if his links with the Jewish community were weakened by his marriage, his parents could still have been Orthodox Jews and so their marriage and his birth could be recorded elsewhere
Wainwright - Yorkshire
Whitney - Herefordshire
Watson -  Northamptonshire
Trant - Yorkshire
Helps - all
Needham - Derbyshire
Waterhouse - Derbyshire
Northing - all

Offline Eppingjewish

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Re: Jewish community Diss 1700's
« Reply #3 on: Monday 11 July 16 04:33 BST (UK) »
Dear Marmalady,

I came across your post and found it very interesting as I'm having some similar issues. My ancestors were Rayners and Harveys from the Norfolk/Suffolk border area around Diss and particularly Hoxne. There was a historical Jewish community in Diss officially until 1290 when all Jews were expelled from England. It is likely however that at least some converted to Christianity or went undercover. I have in my family a similar thing to you where children have many Hebrew names such as Arun, Naome, Solomon, Nathan etc. There are also others with names such as Thirza and Jabez.

Have you undertaken a genetic DNA test as that's what first pointed to my Ashkenazi ancestors.

It would be interesting to hear from you as its the same area, the same time period and we seem to have some similar experiences.

Regards,

Nicky


Offline JustinL

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Re: Jewish community Diss 1700's
« Reply #4 on: Monday 11 July 16 09:32 BST (UK) »
Hello Nicky,

You may found this article on the expulsion and re-admission of the Jews of interest.

http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/england_articles/1290_to_1656.htm

and this article abour pre-1290 Jewish communities in England
http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/pre-1290/list_county.htm

It is far more likely that your ancestors had become non-conformists, who frequently favoured Old Testament names. In my Berry family from north Suffolk (not far south of Diss, actually), names such as Aaron, Elijah and Nathan started to appear in the early 19th century. The family had become Baptists.

Particulary in the very austere years following Napoloen's defeat, there was significant disillusionment amongst the rural population with the Established Church. Many turned to the non-conformist churches.

Justin

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Jewish community Diss 1700's
« Reply #5 on: Monday 11 July 16 11:12 BST (UK) »
While I agree in principle that such families are more likely to have been nonconformist, it is worth mentioning that there were notable Jewish communities in East Anglian and other provincial towns at this period.

The standard source is Cecil Roth's The Rise of Provincial Jewry (1950), available online.
http://www.jewishgen.org/sigs/jcruk/susser/provincialjewry/index.htm

Offline Marmalady

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Re: Jewish community Diss 1700's
« Reply #6 on: Monday 11 July 16 11:21 BST (UK) »
Hiya Nicky

I have not got any further with tracing where my Moses Levi came from -- I have been concentrating on easier branches!
His wife Frances Fuller, however, was  very much a local girl -- i have her family in Diss back another 100 years.

FreeReg gives the burial of another wife & child of Moses, some 5 years previous to his marriage to Frances -- so he had been in Diss since at least 1778

If you do find any Jewish records from this area of Norfolk, I would be very interested in looking at them
Wainwright - Yorkshire
Whitney - Herefordshire
Watson -  Northamptonshire
Trant - Yorkshire
Helps - all
Needham - Derbyshire
Waterhouse - Derbyshire
Northing - all

Offline Eppingjewish

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Re: Jewish community Diss 1700's
« Reply #7 on: Monday 11 July 16 11:58 BST (UK) »
Dear JustinL,

Thank you for those links. I will check them all out. I understand that there was indeed a large Baptist and other non-conformist population in rural areas as you say however the reason I'm convinced this is not the case with my family is due to the following:

My great grandmother who is the descendent of this line was often stopped in the streets in London in the early 20th century and asked by Jewish people if she was Jewish. I undertook a genetic DNA test which shows that I have some Ashkenazi ancestry and it doesn't plausibly fit with any other branch of my family history through naming and other processes of elimination. Reading up on naming practices amongst non-conformist Christians and Jews, non-conformists who used Biblical names tended to give each child an Old Testament name whereas Jewish families would often only name some children with Hebrew names and give the others non-religious secular names, this fits with my Solomon Rayner who has Arun, Naome, Nathan as siblings but then others with names such as Edgar, Harriet etc. Finally on the Harvey line there were Harvey members in villages close to Hoxne who anecdotally were said to have looked Jewish in the early 1800s because of their dark features and dark hair. Two members of the family were said to wear skull caps and have long beards. In early 19th century England beards were not worn but Jewish people over Europe did have beards at that time. I thought the skull cap could be a confusion for a smoking cap but even smoking caps were not popularised until after the Crimean war. Finally it is another annecdote that one of these Harvey's was cast out from his village for twice marrying his niece, this is permitted under Jewish law but not under English Law or Church Canon Law.

That is why I'm pretty convinced that this family was unlikely to be non-conformists.

Regards,

Nicky

Offline Eppingjewish

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Re: Jewish community Diss 1700's
« Reply #8 on: Monday 11 July 16 12:12 BST (UK) »
Dear Bookbox,

Thank you for that link. It was very interesting.

Regards,

Nicky