Stuck with the Smiths again!

[toni*]

i am racking my brains trying to think of where John & Diana could have married
it was usual (i use the term lightly) for a bride to be married in her home parish and then to set up home in the grooms parish but to return to the Bride's parish for the christening of the first child.
if they stuck to this it would suggest that Diana was not from Poole or Parkstone
which doesnt really help us at all!

[toni*]

there are 5 days between MV1 death and the baptism  of MV2
MV1 could have died in child birth to MV2 however i wonder who carried out he christening of MV2 was the family known o the vicar / curate etc. surely he wouldn't knowingly put incorrect information in the PR's 
it was a general rule of thumb to have the child christened on the 3rd Sunday after the child's birth but rules were meant to be broken!

[RRYFS]

Although, here in Parkstone, we're not very far from St James, I can imagine that it was very much "out in the sticks" in 1814. Until St Peter's was built, this area was probably in the Canford Magna Parish, along with Longfleet, while a bit further up the hill would have been in Kinson. On that basis, they were probably not known to whoever officiated at the burial and baptism. It would take another trip to the records to see if they recorded who created the entries - the transcriptions don't include that detail.

[Hobbit Frodo]

Hi All,

Sorry for the slow response....my email didn't notify me that there had been further responses  but also I have been trying to get some more facts to go on!

First off though I really must say thank you again for everyone's thoughts on the matter of the Smiths and the Margaret Viney issue, it really has been a great help in different ways to think about things. Also, great find Toni with the Gallop's on Jersey, it surely must be them as all the ages fit etc.

I have pretty much discounted our lot from the Newfoundland connections though there may be something way back when that links the families. I have however, I think, possibly found where the Viney comes from.....just a little worried I may be clutching at straws but Margaret Viney is a pretty specific name to keep cropping up so here goes with what I've found (apologies for repeating a bit but just trying to put it in context!):

So John Smith married Diana ? somewhere somewhen (still no further on this one)
I listed before that I had found the following:

John SMITH and Jane FRICKER married St James 1760 and had:
Mary and Martha 1761
Elizabeth 1763
John 1765
Margaret Viney 1769
Nathaniel 1771

With the dates and the Margaret Viney cropping up yet again this seemed like it was the right family. I have since found......

Nathaniel SMITH of Sturminster Marshall and Margaret VINEY married in the parish of Thorncombe on 20th September 1732

They had:

Thomas 1732/3 (old calendar)
Samuel 1734
John 1736 .............................(so if this is the right one that would make him 24
                                                when he got married to Jane FRICKER)
Mary 1737
William 1738
Henry 1740
Betty 1742
Margaret 1745
Christopher born 1748 died 1748
Deborah 1748(?)

The list of children (and also Nathaniel's death in 1748) were all from The Registers of Sturminster Marshall available through the national archives. So he would have gone to Thorncombe to marry Margaret VINEY then returned to his parish. He died in 1748 and I have now obtained his will from the public records office and he talks about his house in Thorncombe and another one elsewhere and his friends who are to be executors are in Blandford, Maperton and somewhere else, also he talks of a merchant, someone JOLIFFE in Poole who is to be part of the group looking after his assets when he dies, which he did whilst his youngest two were infants and some of his other children were also youngsters (there is a section at the end of the will about how it was carried out after he had died and they are all mentioned). He mentions all his kids and his 'loving wife' within the will...it's very long! He obviously had a bit of money though and did move around unlike his descendents who all seemed to stay stuck in Parkstone.

I have Margaret's parents from the Thorncombe records. Whilst the surnames do vary initially (and this is acknowledged on the annotation with question marks) I am sure they are all Viney's and I also now have Margaret's parents' wills and this confirms the names. So here goes:

William VINDE / VINNE / VINE / VINEY married Margaret ? and had:
Margaret Viney (no record of her birth viewable online)
Anstis VINDE b.1714
Ruth VINDE b. 1714 ............(there's a bit of a twins thing running through the
                                            family.....)
Sarah VINNE b.1717
Betty VINE b.1720
Mary VINE b. 1718
also mentioned in the Will of their mother, as far as I can tell, the names are Susannah and Maria or Hannah. Not all Thorncombe records are complete online but the ones mentioned above (apart from Margaret) are all daughters of William Viney in Thorncombe and later on the marriages of Margaret, Ruth and Anstis are all recorded with VINEY as the surname.

Margaret VINEY senior (in fact she's the 6th one going backwards!) her Will makes interesting reading and again she must have had a bit of cash which makes me wonder whether this has something to do with the name being carried on. She talks about giving her gold mourning ring (William her husband died in 1725/6 whereas she lasted until 1732/3) and her gold wedding ring to her daughters and also her silver spoons and plate...she also gives money and splits up the dwelling house for the twins with mention of dividing up the garden and the access to the water pump! In addition to this she talks about the dye house attached to the dwelling house and leaving cloths. Thorncombe (I have learnt) was a thriving weaving / woollen centre at this time so looks like she was al part of that.

So that's where I've got to, if people think I'm seriously clutching at straws then please tell me! Hope this all makes sense,
Frodo

[Hobbit Frodo]

Oh and I also got the Will for John SMITH who died relatively recently in 1837....makes for interesting and very difficult reading as the writing is tiny....but I think I have seen mention of someone working for him called James GALLOP....this would have been a year before Fanny SMITH was born to his Margaret Viney SMITH and then she happened to marry a James GALLOP 4 years later.....so he was hanging around!

Frodo

[toni*]

thats brilliant Frodo it all makes sense
 

just to find that blasted mariage between John Smith & Diana!

 

[Hobbit Frodo]

Thanks Toni! I have to say I'm really pleased to have been lucky enough to find out so much....my Dad is fascinated and only wishes his father was around to hear it all. My poor Mum's side of the family is being sadly neglected at the moment and they're not so easy as they're mainly Manchester and Kent! I'm lucky that I'm local enough to get to places round Dorset.

Want to do a graveyard hunt now....shame I have to go back to work next week, I've had two week's leave hence so much investigating! Won't be stopping now though.

And yes, that marriage between John and Diana is HIGHLY frustrating....I am going to head back to Dorchester though and check marriage records for other areas now I've discovered that there were ancestors back in other areas of Dorset, though they were a while before John was getting married I still think it would be worth a look.

And I'll let you know what I decipher about James Gallop's appearance in the Will....think it could explain a lot! Wel....add to the speculation about Fanny's parentage anyway!

The other thing I found out was in one of the old newspapers (Bournemouth Library give onine access to 19th century newspaper archives)....John and Diana's son William (my great great great grandfather) married Sarah HORE and was living with Sarah and her father and mother for a good length of time. Sarah's dad, John HORE appears to have been quite a character. In the local museum I found mention to him buying land, being on the voting list in 1810 and being made a Burgess of Poole in 1871, 3 years before he died at the age of 94! In the 1841 census he is down as a publican and in the 1834 news I found a whole thing about 'The Riots of Parkstone' where there was a mob formed outside his pub and they pulled down a sign (don't know what it was)....the witnesses are other names I recognise from other areas of the family tree (COOKMAN was his wife's maiden name and her nephew is a witness...there's also a FRICKER) It's all rather amusing!

Anyhow, I will keep on the hunt for Diana...and also try to figure out the other names in Nathaniel's Will from 1748 as I think it could be interesting to see if there are any notes, especially regarding the merchant in Poole as this could help explain the family's move over to this area.

Think I have enough to keep me busy...then there's mum's lot!

Thanks again
Frodo

[RRYFS]

The Jolliffes were one of the wealthy merchant families of Poole, who made their fortunes in the Newfoundland trade. They used to ship out men and supplies to Newfoundland - the men would live there fishing, then the ships transported the salted cod to Portugal, and brought port back to Poole. There are a number of books published by the Poole historical trust about this trade, the families involved, and their houses. Jolliffe House still exists in Poole and is now used as offices.

[Hobbit Frodo]

Wow that's fab, thanks RRYFS!

Nathaniel says in his will (as far as I can figure out);
(He's talking about what he's leaving his friends George Trenchard (?) the younger of Litchet (?) Squire Anthony Latouz (really hard to read!) of Blanford Forum and Gentleman John ?..borne of Maperton)

".....(all previous names) Azariah (?) Vinney Esquire in my said Will mentioned and Christopher Joliff of the town and county of Poole Merchant and to the survivors and survivor of them and the /....../ executors and administrators of /......../ survivors or survivor in trust to and for the said intents and purposes in my said will mentioned and I do nominate and appoint the said George Trenchard the younger, Azariah Vinney and Christopher Joliff together with my wife Margaret Smith joint executors in trust of my said will and I do give to my said good friends George Trenchard, Azariah Vinney and Christopher Joliff and Anthony Latouz a Gold Ring each but the said John .....borne shall have no ring and I do declare this codicil to be part of my said last will and testament...."

I hope I can figure out what the names are but I'm sure Christoher Joliff is right so I hope I can find out where he is in the Joliff line up. Might also explain how some Smiths and Vineys are listed over in Newfoundland if there were these links.

I love finding out all the context around what was going on then!

Thanks again

Frodo