Stuck with the Smiths again!

[Hobbit Frodo]

Yet again I come back to my computer to discover a wealth of useful info!

I have spent the day in the county records office and am a little confused but think I may (only may!) have found some links between things.

I have also gone back over all the info I have to find out where the John and Diana bit cropped up in the first place and whether it was trustworthy! Basically I am sure from census info of the correct lineage up to William SMITH who married Sarah HORE in 1836. (John and Diana are supposedly his parents.) I have also now got confirmation from parish records and also going back over info just now from similar sources of the following:

William SMITH married Sarah HORE on 18th April 1836
                       witnesses Margaret V. Smith and John Hore (this should be William's
                       sister and Sarah's father) William is listed as Carpenter / Joiner

James GALLOP married Margaret Viney SMITH on 7th Feb 1837 (he is listed as a
                        cordwainer...need to find out what that is!)


A curious thing with the Margaret Viney SMITH thing is that I also found the following....

Margaret Viney SMITH, daughter of John (Coal Metor) and Diana SMITH
                                    Baptised Poole, St James 12/01/1814
Margaret Viney SMITH daughter of John and Diana SMITH
                                    Baptised Poole, St James 25/03/1798
Margaret Viney SMITH, buried 07/01/1814 aged 16

Hmmmm.....so, did they have a daughter in 1798 (when Diana would have been 31 if other records are correct, I'll come to them in a mo), then was pregnant when her 16 year old daughter died....and gave their new little girl the same name? The ages work out for the death and for the new one marrying in 1837.

Interestingly on the MV Smith side of things I also found this record....

Fanny SMITH, daughter of Margaret Viney SMITH (no father recorded) "Spinster" born 25/04/33, baptised 09/01/1834 - this was in the Parkstone parish records. So looks like little Fanny was illegitimate. However....would Mr Gallop have then married Miss Smith with a sprog already around? Wanted to see if I could find the 'Gallops' living with a child called Fanny in any of the census' but ran out of time.

So, the Smiths....from St James's records I have:

John SMITH son of John and Diana baptised: 16/01/1791
Thomas SMITH son of J&D baptised: 13/10/1793
Margaret Viney SMITH dtr baptised: 25/03/1798
Sarah SMITH dtr born: 16/09/1801 and baptised: 30/10/1801
William SMITH son: born: 25/01/1811  baptised: 03/05/1811

Burial Records for St James:
Diana SMITH: Parkstone 01/10/1817 aged 50 (= dob: 1767) this means she would have been 47 when she had the second Margaret which would have been pretty remarkable I would have thought in those days but not impossible...no wonder she died 3 years later she was probably exhausted!

John SMITH: Parkstone 19/01/1937 aged 71 (=dob: 1766)...again this fits with Diana's dob though I know that's not conclusive evidence.

Poole Christenings:

Martha and Mary SMITH twins born to John and Jane SMITH 19/07/1761
Elizabeth SMITH dtr 19/10/1763
John SMITH son 07/08/65 .........(fits with dates / ages)
Margaret Viney SMITH dtr 15/02/1769 (it's that name again!)
Nathaniel SMITH son 05/07/71

So that lots seems right....

I found one marriage for a John SMITH and Jane at St James for:
John SMITH marries Jane FRICKER April 9th 1760 which would be one year before the first kid arrives so again seems the most likely.

Jane FRICKER was daughter of John and Martha (same first name as one of the twins) born 01/05/1741
they also had William, Elizabeth and Robinson.

And that's as far as I got before they kicked me out!

Thanks as ever to everyone for all your help. Going to visit the Treetops place, hadn't heard about that before!

I now need a strong drink and so will any of you who have ploughed through this!

[RRYFS]

First, the easy bit. I'm sure they will have been importing coal into Poole for domestic use, so they would need someone to count it to make sure the Geordies (or whoever) weren't ripping them off!

Next a suggestion. If your 16 year old daughter died in childbirth in 1814, would you not be tempted to have the baby baptised as your daughter and name her after her mother?

And to answer your other question, my wife's many times great Aunt had an illegitimate daughter in Parkstone in 1836, when she was 16, and was married before the 1851 census. It looks like she suffered a problem, as she never had any more children, but she lived with her husband, daughter, and later, daughter's husband and children on Brownsea Island until she was widowed in 1871. Her husband is buried there! So having a child was no barrier to later marriage.

If you have been through the registers at Dorchester ( there is also a copy in the Family History Centre at Poole Museum), the DHFS records at Treetops are transcribed from those. I know where to find them on line, so I will look further now your dates seem to be firming up.

[Hobbit Frodo]

Wow thanks RRYFS!

I hadn't thought about the illegitimate bit but it does make sense....does make it curious that it looks like she might have gone on to have her own illegitimate child later on..hmmm...just  a random observation.

I thought the same about coal. I was looking through some of the old newspapers trying to find a death notice for John Hore (William Smith's father in law who he lived with) as he carried on until he was 94 and was made a burgess of Poole and had all sorts of jobs along the way...whilst unsuccessfully finding anything out about the man I was amused to see small ads asking for tenders for supply of six months worth of coals for Bournemouth Hospital.

I went through various records at Poole and yes, I was at Dorchester today in case I could find anything further. Sounds like perhaps I'm not going to get an awful lot further by going to Treetops.

I'd like to head back down to the museum to have another trawl through newspapers and things to give some more social context.

Thanks again

Frodo (on the wine now!)

[RRYFS]

I think the Dorset FHS website will give you an idea of what records they hold at Treetops (which incidentally is effectively in a basement!), so its worth looking to see what else they have which might be useful.

Looking further back, I still can't find a Diana marriage in Dorset, but looking for John's father, John - there is a burial at St James on 8th April 1804 of John Smith, aged 59 (prob too young), and a baptism on 19th April 1734 of John Smith, son of John and Eliza - could be a possible.

There is a marriage of John Smith and Elizabeth Dewy, both otp, in Bere Regis on 28th March 1725.

[amazon510]

Re the coal-related occupation, Poole was of course a major seaport - maybe he worked measuring or reporting coal imports and exports coming in through the harbour?  He might have worked for a coal merchant, or maybe the customs office?

Regarding the daughter with the illegitimate child who eventually married - maybe the man Gallop who she eventually married was the father of the child who decided to finally make an honest woman of her?  Any indication that Fanny eventually became Fanny Gallop?

I'm not so sure about the theory that the older Margaret Viney died in childbirth - there is a large gap between the birth and the baptism.  I would think if the mother died it was probably a hard delivery, and besides the child's chance of survival without mother's milk would have been reduced.  In those circumstances I would have expected to see the child baptized very quickly after the birth.  The long gap (9 months) suggests a healthy baby and mum, but possibly hesitation to bring the baby to church due to the circumstances.

Re the possible Newfoundland link, in this time period Newfoundland was more a place where people went to work than to settle.  People would go over in the spring, stay for a fishing season or two, and then return in the fall.  A man might very well be born, married or buried in England but spend part of his working life in Newfoundland. 

Jennifer.

[amazon510]

More re Newfoundland, Seary's "Family Names of the Island of Newfoundland" has an early reference to "Nath. Smith of Greenspond, 1804".  The source is the d'Alberti papers, volume 14 - transcripts of correspondance 1780-1825, between the governors of Newfoundland and the colonial office.  The papers have scanned and put on-line by Memorial University of Newfoundland.  Smith may be common, but Nathanial is less so - might be worth following up.  Nathanial b. 1771 would have been an adult by 1804, could be the same guy.

http://collections.mun.ca/cdm4/description.php?phpReturn=browse.php&cisoroot=cns_colonia

Also, another thought about Margaret Viney - agreed that it would be unlikely for her middle name to be after her mother's first husband.  Unless she was posthumous?  Was there a Viney male buried less than nine months before Margaret's birth?  Maybe Diana was pregnant and widowed when she married John Smith, then gave her baby both her first and second husbands' names.

Jennifer.

[toni*]

if Fanny was illegitimate possibly there may be bastardy bonds for her it is in the right timeframe but it would depend on if Margaret had parents to support her or other source of income.


A cordwainer  is a shoemaker/cobbler who makes fine soft leather shoes and other luxury footwear articles.

[toni*]

some observations:

it wouldn't be impossible for Diana to have a child when she was 47 but that is a good point of MV2 possibly being the child of MV1 i don't know how this could be proved.

a Fanny Smith was buried on Aug 20 1853 at Longfleet she was of Poole Union
this could be your Fanny or another it is difficult to tell (at this stage)  with the name of Smith

from the bp's you found it looks as if John & Diana married pre 1791

there is a big gap (10 years) between Sarah in 1801 & William in 1810
what can explain this ?

the John Smith you found with sister Margaret Viney would indeed suggest you have the right family and would also confirm the Viney name didn't come from Diana

Robinson Fricker is an interesting name
this may be a small twig to add later on
i have found a Henry Robinson Fricker bp. 2 July 1828 in Southampton the son of Henry and Margaret Fricker
RG10;  332;  73;  56;
in 1871 he is here
 

[toni*]

do you have Margaret and James Gallop in 1841 ?
Jersey St Helier Channel Islands
James Gallop   25 .... Booker
Margaret Gallop   25 house keeper
Fanny Gallop   7
Helen Gallop   4
Mary Gallop   2
All born England
 HO107; 1461;  14;  20; 34

there are also some Smiths on the same page born England