John Burns Walton Prison 1891

[Wilbs]

1891 census (RG12/2981 image 27) has 33 year old John Burns, single, dock labourer (born Liverpool 1858) as a guest of Her Majesty in Liverpool (Walton) Prison.

I'm trying to find out more about this person - his crime, sentence, date of trial, family members, etc.  I have no idea when he was sentenced, but if he is the John Burns that I'm looking for his infant daughter Mary was taken into care in 1889, and that may be a clue.

Thank you

Wilbs

[CaroleW]

Depending on what date the child was taken into care - this may be a possibility - but there are a lot of John Burns entries in the Criminal Registers and no ages are shown

Liverpool - 5.12.1889

This is a precis of the offence - Knowingly uttering a counterfeit silver coin and having others in his possession with intent to utter (use).  It was not his first offence of the same nature

He got 5yrs in respect of the felony and 18mths in respect of the misdemeanor - both to run concurrently

No age or address shown and no prison shown

[Wilbs]

Thank you Carole

Is this information freely available on the web or do I need a subscription to search that site?  May I have the web address.  If this is MY GGfather it sounds like I have a lot of history to uncover.

The family spoke very little about the past and this may explain some of the blanks.

The only other information is an address in 1889 - 16 Carnarvon Street, Kirkdale.  I have traced the family that lived there in 1891 but can find no link.  I had hoped that John Burns was living at this address when sentenced - and that the court records would reflect that - but that avenue seems closed.  Do you know of any way to trace occupants outside of census years?

Best wishes

Wilbs

[garstonite]

Hiya Wilbs..............is this him in 1881
Walton Gaol H M Prison
Hornby Road
Walton on the Hill

JOHN BURNS aged 23 b 1858 Liverpool    occ   fireman steam vessel ....( engine stoker )
and next but one cell is Patrick Burns  b Liverpool 1859 .....dock labourer

allan

[Radcliff]

Hello Wilbs,

Do you have Marys birth certificate or marriage certificate, this would give her fathers details, as the John in the prison records is single, would your Mary be a Burns,

[Wilbs]

Thank you both for your replies.

Yes, Mary is a Burns and John Burns is acknowledged as her father on her 1889 birth certificate.  His occupation at the time was ships cook.

Mary was left in the care of Grace Wilberforce and although single, Grace registered the child and advised that Mary's parents John William Burns and Grace Burns (formerly Wilberforce).  Mary grew up with spinster sisters Grace and Ida Wilberforce in Toxteth Park.  Eventually Grace Wilberforce and John Burns married in 1897. 

Mary Ida (or Ida as she was known) hardly mentioned her family, but three comments stand out -

• She was born on a barge in Scotland
  She always praised Grace Wilberforce and had "no idea what would have happened to her if Grace hadn't taken her in"
  John wanted to married Grace years earlier but she would have none of it until "he changed his wild ways"

"Wild ways" could have meant anything from enjoying too many glasses of beer to Walton Gaol!

My biggest challenge is the large number of John Burns' in Liverpool and I'm gradually working my way through everyone.  The latest family to have me stumped is

1861 census - living 20 Edgar Street, Vauxhall, Liverpool
John Burns, 25, labourer, born Ireland
Maria Burns, 28, born Ireland
John Burns, 2, born 1859 in Liverpool
Mary Burns, 3 mths/weeks born Liverpool.

I know from John's marriage certificate that his father was also called John William Burns and perhaps John jnr named his daughter after mother Maria or sister Mary. It looks like John senior died at an early age and mother Maria spends her life in the Workhouse.  No obvious sign of sister Mary.

However, there are just as many Mary Burns' in Liverpool as there are John's.

And the 1881 census with John in Walton Gaol could very well be him.  Carole commented that it wasn't John's first offense and he could very well have fathered a child in the probably short periods between incarceration.

Best wishes

Wilbs

[MancsMan.]

Hi Wilbs

Have you checked out the

http://www.blacksheepindex.co.uk/

Regards
Ken

[Radcliff]

So Grace moved around quite a bit from what I can see in census returns , and she was at least  thirteen years older then John,when they married,

here is Mary Idas baptism if you havnt got it,


Born 19th of June 1889,baptism 17 th of July 1889,

Maria Joa Burns,
daughter of Joannis Burns and Gratiae (Wilberforce)
godmother Ida Wilberforce ,

[Wilbs]

Hi Radcliff

Where did you find Grannie's baptism?  Which church?  It's definitely a record that I don't have.  I never remember her going to church - and John & Grace were married at a Registry Office - so assumed that she wasn't baptised.

What nationality are the names?  Are we Catholic?

Can I get a copy?

Sorry, so many questions but after years of searching the is the first bit of new information that we have.

Maybe the John & Maria Burns in the 1861 census is finally the right track.

Thank you from a very excited Wilbs