James THORPE - arrival in Australia

[maxene]

Thank you -  I am onto the Flicker images. Maxene

[majm]

Hi,

So married in 1823, in Scotland, then 5 children (1 male, 4 females) then Jane comes to NSW following her husband who had arrived earlier, possibly transported as a convict.  Have you checked that the John, escorting this family out on that voyage was her bro in law? (Sometimes in my tree the names James and John turn out to be the same person rather than brothers).

Allowing 15 months (allow time for mum to nurse the newborns) between each child, and presume first child born mid 1823 ....  I think you are looking at James arriving NO EARLIER than 1830. 

If transported in 1830 or later, perhaps for a trial in 1829 and with a sentence of 7 years .... he could have been completed his sentence by 1837.  He may even have been in a position to help fund the fares for that voyage on the Adam Lodge.   

Do you have a readers card for either the National Library of Australia or similar bodies at state level?  If so, have you accessed online the UK historic newspapers, as these include Scottish newspapers .... Hope this clue could help, but I am not crossing fingers this time 

Cheers,  JM

[maxene]

Hi Majm - I love the way you think. John was DEFINITELY the brother-in-law. He lived in Pyrmont and ran a stone masonry firm until his death in 1865. I have tried to rationalise things like you have. What I haven't considered is that James COULD have come out after the family - but that makes little sense to me - and Alexander was baptised in 1838 so he would have been conceived not long after Jane arrived in 1837. One family legend has that James was a member of the Loyal Orange Lodge. Maybe I should be trying to learn about that and see if I can come up with anything from that angle. I have purchased a number of the children's marriage and death certificates to see if I could learn anything new but no such luck. I have put feelers out in the Scotland section (after not having any long distance luck using on line resources that I have access to). I will hopefully at least get a bit of info about marriage or Mary's birth. Not that that will help me find James' arrival in Australia but you never know.
I have a friend who has access to National Libraby resources - she is going to see what she can find. I'll keep looking at Trove.
When I am successful (positive thinking!) I will let you know!!! Maxene

[majm]

Well..... I can firmly confirm that the Loyal Orange Lodge in and around Pyrmont was very active !!!  And that many of my own forebears from that very suburb were loyal lodge members, and of course stone masons. 

If you are near a public library, try this book about Pyrmont & Ultimo (I have copy here, no mention of James in it, but there's mention of a Charles Thorpe in 1917) ....

Pyrmont and Ultimo: Under Siege was commissioned to mark the Sesquincentenary of the City of Sydney and forms part of the Sydney History Series...
ISBN 0 86806 514 5
Copyright 1994 by Shirley Fitzgerald and Hilary Golder.

I purchased my copy around 1995. 

(Dewey number 994.41)

Cheers,  JM

[maxene]

  Thanks for that - I will enjoy the read. Maxene

[maxene]

I am still on this  - I have just read an account of the "Adam Lodge" both pre and during the trip - still no ideas on James. However, on going back through the Adam Lodge passenger list - I missed something which COULD be important. Both John and Jane said they had NO RELATIVES in NSW. Would you take that to mean that James came out AFTER them - or that he was on his way on another ship? I also notice that Alexander, the son born in 1838 (first born in the colony) has the father listed as Thomas Thorpe, but on his death certificate, his father is listed as James. I am wondering...should I be looking for a James Thomas or Thomas James Thorpe? The plot thickens - and I become more confused... Can anyone offer any suggestions? Maxene

[majm]

Hi there,

My take ...... they knew that neither of them, nor the children, had any relatives in NSW .....  so James was either in a different colony (NZ, VDL, at the Cape, Canada) or was still in England, or was in the Americas, or was somewheres else, perhaps a seaman on a sailing ship on the high seas or in the army, or employed by the East India Co, or Jane was a widow.

Re John at Pyrmont and James, perhaps the father of Alexander b 1838 in NSW ..... are you sure these two chaps were brothers?  Was there another brother named Thomas?  I have plenty of examples where Jno and Jas are indexed as separate people, yet when I get to the primary records, (eg NSW State Records Office) and look at the details, Jno and Jas are simply poorly indexed, they are ONE person, their signatures have been mis-transcribed, mind you the signatures were first penned on the papers in the 1820's, and thus have deteriorated over time. 

Now to find James arriving AFTER Jane  and perhaps NOT as a convict ..... so back to the indexes at NSW SRO
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx  (you could follow up on Thomas Thorp/e too)

Cheers,  JM (with fingers crossed of course)

[maxene]

What a saga this is! What I AM certain of is that John and James were two separate people who were two years apart - James born in 1803 and John in 1805. James died in 1858 and John died in 1865. I am not sure of anything with this family!!! But I will soldier on. Thanks Majm  Maxene

[majm]

I think some of the info in this thread is needed on M's new thread

 am on e-reader so cannor do the live link thingy yet