Benjamin and Frances James

[Dutch Uncle]

Following my queries regarding Benjamin James, my Great Great Grandfather, and his second wife Frances, with help from several very kind people on here, I have been able to go a bit further back. However I have now hit another brick wall.

Following the help above I was able to request the birth certificate for Frances James, nee Hendy, and was able to find that her mother was Anne Hendy. As expected no father was mentioned (reputed father Joseph Protheroe thus unconfirmed).

I am now at a crossroads regarding the paternal ancestry of Benjamin James (born 1839). The James family Bible which has passed down to me confirms that Benjamin's father was James James, probably born ca 1810. The 1841 census for Stackpole Elidor shows James James and Sarah James, both aged ca 25 with a son Benjamin aged 18 months which is the correct age. 
 
A while ago I had a short-term license with ancestry.com, and was able to import some information from other family trees which I now believe may be incorrect.  The family trees (probably not independent, probably one person entered the information first and everyone else imported) all suggest James James' parents were Thomas James (b1785) and Margaret Rowland (b1789), and that Thomas James' parents were James Williams (b1759)and Margaret (b1763). I can find no other evidence to confirm this, and I find it strange that the surname changed from father to son from Williams to James.
Following a kind tip on here from Orielbenfro, I have searched the Stackpole Group of Parishes Registers Index  site at

http://www.revjones.fsnet.co.uk/stackgrpreg/register.htm

and I think I have built up a different picture as follows:
• James James baptised 10/4/1814 in Stackpole Elidor to parents Thomas and Ann
• James James married Sarah Griffiths on 22/4/1837 in Stackpole Elidor
• Thomas James married Anne Gibbs in St Petrox on 29/11/1799 (I am assuming there are several inconsistencies in the spelling of Ann/Anne)
• There are 9 children baptised in Stackpole Elidor to Thomas and Ann(or Anne), these names all tally with offspring of Thomas James in the family trees imported.
• Thomas James was baptised 28/11/1773 in Stackpole Elidor to parents David and Anne.
• Unable to find burial match for Thomas James, but there is an Ann James buried 9/7/1851 aged 72 in St Twynnells;
• The 1841 census for Stackpole Elidor has an Ann James aged 60, Elizabeth James aged 40,Alice James aged 36 and George James age 20 living with Benjamin and Sarah James; intriguingly they are described as 'Parochial Relief' rather than as relations, but their ages all match those of Ann and three of her children of the same name.   

I feel  I have probably uncovered enough to discredit the information in the family trees (when I was a member of Ancestry, none of the family tree owners I could find had logged in for several months or even years).

Is the above sufficient to overturn the family trees and identify Thomas James and Anne Gibbs as James James' parents?  Has anyone else been researching any of the above people?

Regards

Brian W

[Morganllan]

... Thomas James' parents were James Williams (b1759)and Margaret (b1763). ... and I find it strange that the surname changed from father to son from Williams to James.

Possible due to Welsh patronymic naming custom (children took Father's first name as their surname).

[Orielbenfro]

In over 30+ years of researching in “Little England Beyond Wales” (Sth Pembs) I have never ever seen or noted the use of ‘Welsh patronymic naming custom’ from the 17th century to the present in this area.  Mind there is a first time for everything perhaps this is it, but doubtful. Go north of circa Clynderwyn or east of Crunwere then proof positive can been seen over generations of the custom pre 17th century.

I note you have only used the abbreviated listing for Stackpole so the following may be of further assistance.
From my transcription of the Parish registers of Stackpole Elidor 1724-1991, I have expanded the items shown;
10 Apr 1814 James to Thos and Ann James of Stackpool a Servant baptised by James Summers
(Note Thos prob a servant at Stackpole House)
(Note: between 1813 and 1819 Thos and Ann(e) live in the 3 locations of Stackpole, Stackpole Village & Woodsend Stackpole, of course the children baptised to Thos & Ann(e) 1802 to 1813 do not have a residence shown at baptism, 1813 saw the introduction of a new type of register)

It is possible to be more accurate with the residence of Thos & Ann since they reside in Stackpole Village at the time of their daughter Maria’s baptism in 1816 yet they have moved to Woodsend Stackpole at Maria’s demise and burial in 1822.

22 Apr 1837 James James of Stackpole Elidor mrd Sarah Griffiths of Stackpole Elidor by banns infront of F. Geo. Leach. James signed his name and Sarah made her mark in the presence of James Williams and Sarah Hall.

I would speculate that witness ;
James Williams was baptised at Stakpole 02 Aug 1789 to Thomas & Eliza: Williams
Sarah Hall was baptised at Stackpole 22 Nov 1812 the dau of James & Mary Hall

28 Nov 1773 Thomas to David & Ann James baptised (nil further info shown in P.R.’s)

Since the bride and groom only had to reside in parish for a minimum of 6 weeks to be of that parish at mrge, and there is no reference to the baptism of a Sarah Griffiths in S.P. or surrounding parishes, I would speculate that the only Sarah to fit is the following ;

From my transcription of all the Parish Registers of Pembroke St Michael for Bapt/Mrge/Burial for 1711 to the 1950’s ;
15 Nov 1815 Sarah to Abraham & Mary Griffiths of the Eastend a Hatter baptised by Wm Lloyd.
(Note; This is the only reference to a child of Abraham being baptised in this parish)

I trust the above is of some assistance.

Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname

[Dutch Uncle]

Orielbenfro

Once again I am indebted to you and your expertise, and for your kind and unbelievably rapid response. Very many thanks.

I had also thought about the possibility of patronyms so the comments from your background experience are very welcome. I am now speculating that maybe someone making a family tree (and one of the trees concerned had over 10,000 people all over the world) may have mistakenly entered the name of the witness James Williams into the system, and it has somehow emerged as the father of Thomas James. Or the Thomas James in the trees is a different Thomas James and not the father of my James James. Also I can find no reference anywhere to a Margaret Rowland, so I am becoming more confident of Thomas and Ann James as my ancestors, and not Thomas and Margaret, especially with the Ann James in the same house as James James in the 1841 Stackpole Elidor census.

Thank you also for the information re Sarah Griffiths and her possible parents. The 1851 Manorbier census has Sarah born in Lampeter (I think Lampeter Velfrey) ca 1813. Is this in the area covered by Pembroke St Michael?

I have noted another member of this Pembrokeshire board looking for Ann(e) Gibbs in Warwick and I will mail him.

I will probably plan a trip over to the UK and visit Pembrokeshire next year, and would be delighted to thank you in person if feasible.

Once again many thanks

Brian W

[Orielbenfro]

Brian
Pembs St Michael and Lampeter Velfrey lie at opposite ends E & W of the county, therefore my suggestion can be absolutely ignored.

The is no reference to the baptism of a Sarah Griffiths in the Lampeter Velfrey area around the time of your interest in the established church and have to admit to drawing a complete blank in establishing a Sarah Griffith(s) that could possibly fit your requirements.

There is an outside chance she was baptised in Chapel, in which case she will be very difficult to find.

As you are probably aware pre Sept 1837 all mrge by law had to take place in the established church, no matter what faith a family followed for baptism and burial, by conincidence I have been able to establish a mrge of a Benjamin Griffiths to Esther Evan at Lampeter Velfrey in 1802, could this show the use of the male forename in subsequent generations, again speculation??
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname

[Dutch Uncle]

Many thanks again Orielbenfro

The 1851 Manorbier census actually says Sarah Griffiths was born in "Lampeter, Pembroke" so I had made the leap to Lampeter Velfrey. Doing a google on 'Lampeter Pembroke' brings references to locations in both Lampeter Velfrey and also Lampeter Cardiganshire/Dyfed so I suppose there is also the chance my assumption of Velfrey was wrong. I will look further.

Many thanks for your assistance and suggestions

Regards

Brian W

Edit: Further search has shown that on the 1861 Manorbier and 1871 Monkton censuses that Sarah James was born in 'Gower, Swansea' and 'Glamorganshire, Swansea'. James James' was given as born in Harkpool (mistranscribed from Stackpole) and Cheriton so I am now certainly suspicious of the Lampeter Velfrey birthplace. 

[bjames57]

You are indeed correct Margaret Rowlands is a complete red herring it was picked up my a recorder for the Church of the Latter Day Saints and entered into their IGI database, there was a marriage of a Thomas James with a Margaret Rowlands but it is not our Thomas James of Woodsend who did indeed marry Ann Gibbs by Licence at St Petrox I have a record of his death just before the 1841 census who at the age of 80 was a postman in the early days of the Sir Rowland Hill penny post.

I beleive that Thomas' father may well have been Wiliam James and that other references in the stackpole registers regarding David James point to David and Thomas being brothers the family would then have originated in Carew.

[Snowyday]

I have recently started trying to trace my family tree and have become stuck at Frances James who was the second wife of Benjamin James.

Benjamin James (my Great Great Grandfather) born 12 June 1839 first married Rachel Thomas (b1843, d1874). I do not know Frances' maiden name, but she was born ca 1851 I believe in Monkton and died 24 Oct 1901 and is buried in Maidenwells. Most of this information comes from the James family Bible which has passed down to me. It also shows me Benjamin's father was called James James.

From the 1841 census for Stackpole Elidor I believe Benjamin's parents were James James and Sarah Griffiths (b1813 in Lampeter - I am guessing Lampeter Velfrey), and they were married 22 Apr 1837 in Stackpole Elidor. The family Bible suggests James James was born around 1810, but other information suggests he was christened in 1816. Is this possible? Also the 1841 census suggests he was 25 and thus born ca 1816, but all ages are rounded to the nearest(?) 5 years. However the 1841 census does show an 18 month old Benjamin which makes me fairly confident this is the correct James James.

I then believe James James' parents were Thomas James (b c1785) and Margaret Rowland (b c1789 both in Stackpole Elidor). I then believe Thomas James' parents were James Williams and Margaret (b c1759 and c1763 in Stackpole Elidor). I am not sure how or why the surname seems to have changed at this point.

I would be grateful if anyone has any ideas how I can find Frances' James maiden name. Also is the apparent discrepancy in birth years for James James within normal bounds of uncertainty for this timeframe? And why or how might the surname change from Williams to James?

Good luck to all fellow enthusiasts tracing their roots

Best regards

Brian W

Hello,I am not sure if this is the same family but I think I might have some info for you . My Great,great Grandfather was Benjamin James born 1840 in Maiden Wells,Pembs.then in 1847 Francis Ann James was born in the same village. Benjamin and Francis grew up, met and married in the small village church .
 They had a son named James Henry James. When he grew up he went to work at a ship building firm in Pembroke Dock,( not that far from Maiden Wells) it was here that he met Sarah Ann James (she was born in 1865) 
James Henry James and Sarah married in 1889 or 1890 at St John's Church Pembroke Dock, they lived in Pembroke Dock. Their first child was Mary Francis James( my  paternal Grandmother) was born in March 1891, James and Sarah  went on to have seven children. The information that I have received has been passed on to me by my aunt, not sure if all dates are completely accurate but pretty close. I would be interested to hear if this is the same family that you have been researching.
 

[Dutch Uncle]

Hi Snowyday and many thanks for your post.

After a quick look I think our families may well be related, but that we are not talking about the same Benjamin and Francis James.

My Francis James was born Frances Ann Hendy (Orielbenfro gave me some terrific help earlier in this thread) born 1846 I believe in St Florence. However she did not marry my Benjamin James until 1876 (she was his second wife) and they had 6 children - Annie, John (Jack), Thomas, George, Benjamin and Albert (my Grandfather) - so no James Henry James. Apart from my Grandfather the only one I personally remember is my Uncle Jack - he died in 1965 and he lived in Pembroke Dock.

However my Benjamin James also had 5 children by his first wife (Rachel Thomas who died in 1974 a few days after the birth of their fifth child). Their second child was Sarah Ann James born 30 April 1865 in Monkton. They are in Maidenwells in the 1871 census. I wonder if this is the same Sarah Ann James who is your Great Grandmother?

By extra coincidence on the very same page of the 1871 Census for Maidenwells I find two more of my ancestors - David Thomas and Mary Thomas (nee Hitchings) whose granddaughter Beatrice married Albert James (i.e. my grandparents) much later in 1910. Maidenwell residents of that time seem to be closely connected!

If you would like to make contact I can send you a personal message with my email address

Kind regards

Brian W