Newbury St Nicolas BERRY

[JRF1974]

Hello, I am wondering if anyone in Reading could possibly look for a baptism for a Maria BERRY in Newbury Berkshire around 1818 please?  in the 1851 Census Maria, who by then was Maria Noble, is said to come from Newbury, and her older sister Jane was baptised at St Nicholas Newbury on 12 Nov 1815.  I am really trying to find out their mother Elizabeth/Betsy's maiden name, as unfortunately it isn't provided in Jane's baptism details.  Elizabeth/Betsy, born in Newbury about 1776 (age given as 65 in 1841 census), married William Berry, possibly also in Newbury, but I can't pin down their marriage either, especially without the wife's surname.

[Wahian]

Have been going through the parish registers at Newbury library and so far, only  Jane's baptism at St Nicholas ( Newbury's main church) I've found as to--William and Betty Berry and William was a carpenter.  Maria's 1818 baptism I couldn't find but might be 1817/19 or at another local church ( there's several books to search through, if so)
St Nicholas' parish registers run from the 1500s to 1746 printed books, then restart again in micro-fiche from 1813 onwards, so the year of a possible marriage of William and Elizabeth might fall in this gap.  Her maiden name might be Duff but I'd like to see confirmation of it, so it's only a possibility at the moment.

[JRF1974]

Thanks very much for doing that.  Betty/Betsy/Elizabeth Berry's age was given  as 74 in the 1851 Census, so she must have been born about 1777. She died in London before the 1861 Census was held, but I haven't precisely identified her death date as yet either, as there are several possibilities over the relevant period in Peckham Camberwell, where she was living with Maria and family in 1851.  Very hard to find either her birth or marriage without a surname, and it does rather look like her marriage could well fall into that gap, unfortunately.  I don't know of any other children apart from the two daughters. Is it likely that the family would have changed parishes?  You would think that as Jane was born in 1815, they would have been listed in the 1815 Census of Newbury, but no such luck.

JRF1974

[newburychap]

Have been going through the parish registers at Newbury library and so far, only  Jane's baptism at St Nicholas ( Newbury's main church) I've found as to--William and Betty Berry and William was a carpenter.  Maria's 1818 baptism I couldn't find but might be 1817/19 or at another local church ( there's several books to search through, if so)
St Nicholas' parish registers run from the 1500s to 1746 printed books, then restart again in micro-fiche from 1813 onwards, so the year of a possible marriage of William and Elizabeth might fall in this gap.  Her maiden name might be Duff but I'd like to see confirmation of it, so it's only a possibility at the moment.

The 'gap' is covered by copies of the registers on microfilm at Newbury Library.

[Wahian]

The family was living at 4 Grove Cottage, Marylebone in 1851. In 1857 in Marylebone, an Elizabeth Berry was recorded as a death; possibly the same one as yours?
I shall re-check Newbury library for the folder that has the years the marriage is likely in.

When Maria passes away at the Constance Rd workhouse, Camberwell in 1899, her age given as 84 now indicates a birth around 1815; presumably the same Maria Noble?  Her 1839 marriage in Paddington tells us a bit more about her and her father is still alive  then and a carpenter still.

[JRF1974]

Thanks very much gain. I did order that death certificate for the Elizabeth Berry who died in 1857 but unfortunately it wasn't the right person, as it was for a much younger woman.  In 1861 the Noble family had moved to 7 Arthur St Peckham, parish of Camberwell, borough of Lambeth, and there are a couple of possibilities for Elizabeth in Camberwell betweeen 1851 and 1861, so I probably should order one and hope it is the right choice, and if not I may have to order both.  Some Councils, such as Durham CC, are very helpful, and will tell you which certificate you should order, but Southwark didn't provide any assistance after I emailed an enquiry to them recently.  English certificates are generally not as useful as those in Australia, which often provide maiden names, spouses and children's details, but at least it would confirm date and place of death. 
Maria married in the same church as her sister Jane, who was married there to Thomas Key in 1837, and in 1841 parents William and Elizabeth Berry were living with or next door to Jane and Thomas Key, in Great Exeter St Marylebone.  Father William died in 1843, at 16 Weston Place, London.  His burial is on the London Deaths and Burials records on Ancestry, and at that time the Key and Noble families must also have been living at the same address, as several of their children were born there between 1843 and 1845.  The Key family emigrated to NZ in 1856, but I'm not aware that any Noble family members followed them out there.
Cheers,
JRF1974

[newburychap]

I shall re-check Newbury library for the folder that has the years the marriage is likely in.

You won't find them in any folder - they are on microfilm (35mm reels), not microfiche.

[Wahian]

Back to Newbury library-----Maria was baptised Oct 12, 1817 at St Nicholas.
William and Betsy's marriage just doesn't seem to be appearing at St Nicholas and a few near churches I've checked too.  Berry does seem an unusual name in the area and two other occasions it appears---July 17, 1783 Elizabeth Berry buried at Speen;  26 July 1808 at St Nicholas James Berry married Jane Wigmore.

Went through all the baptism's at St Nicholas for every Elizabeth born 1776-78 and none named Duff. If there is a Speen connection with William and/or Betsy, if she was born 1777, the year before at Speen July 21st, Joseph Tuff married Mary Curtis. Made me wonder if Tuff has been mistaken as Duff?

And when Mr Toomer did his 1815 Census of Newbury, what did he consider to be Newbury?  Would places such as Speen, Shaw, Donnington be left off but later on, people from those places might well have put Newbury on 1841 Census's onwards?



   

[newburychap]

And when Mr Toomer did his 1815 Census of Newbury, what did he consider to be Newbury?  Would places such as Speen, Shaw, Donnington be left off but later on, people from those places might well have put Newbury on 1841 Census's onwards?

Joseph Toomer's census of 1815 was of the Borough of Newbury (of which he was Mayor) - which, at that date, was contiguous with St Nicolas' parish. Speen, Shaw and Donnington were not included, even Speenhamland is omitted even though it was part of the town as it was not in the borough (until 1878).