Old IRA Dublin Brigade

[watchman1]

I just had a quick read of this, Noel Lemass lived in Capel St, He was shot after the Civil War.It was rumoured that it was Free State officers in plain clothes that did it.The reason he was shot was he was taking pot shots at army trucks from his parents home & managed to kill 2 officers.He went on the run to the Isle of Man if I remember right & returned a few months after the Civil War ended.His body was found in the Dublin Mountains I think.

GaryDeering,
Can I give you a little information on Noel Lemass. Noel was an engineer by profession and was at work on the day that he was abducted. This was after the Cease Fire of 1923. He was in Drury Street with one of his foremen (they were with Dublin Corporation Cleansing Dept.) when they were approached by two armed men. Lemass was held by one of the gunmen, whilst the foreman was brought around the corner by the other and told to clear off. That was the last time that Lemass was seen alive. His parents made several requests to Cosgrave as to his whereabouts, without avail. There were many rumours about at the time as to why he had been singled out. It was said by some that Collins had personally ordered  his death, as Lemass, in his capacity as Intelligence Officer, in the Dublin Brigade, had had access to Collins's personal mail. It took all those months for Collins's men to catch up with Lemass. So one of the stories go. Cheers, Watchman1

[Gary Deering]

Cheers Watchman, It would not have taken the Free State long to find Lemass , for example my Great Uncle was a Free State Officer his brother worked in the Corporation Cleansing Dept ! Being Dubliners they would have had contacts everywhere, John Pinkman stated in his book Lemass was shot as a result of him shooting from his family home into a Free State truck & killing two soldiers ! As a senior IRA Officer it seems a bit of a silly thing to do ? maybe his little brother did the shooting ? Also in the Pinkmans book he mentions an ASU man who deserted the Dublin Guard & fought for the republicans & was killed by the murder gang in Oriel House. Any idea who this ASU man was ?

[margnip2]

Hi all, following with interest.  We were up in the mountains this Sept and came across this.  Very sad.

[watchman1]

Cheers Watchman, It would not have taken the Free State long to find Lemass , for example my Great Uncle was a Free State Officer his brother worked in the Corporation Cleansing Dept ! Being Dubliners they would have had contacts everywhere, John Pinkman stated in his book Lemass was shot as a result of him shooting from his family home into a Free State truck & killing two soldiers ! As a senior IRA Officer it seems a bit of a silly thing to do ? maybe his little brother did the shooting ? Also in the Pinkmans book he mentions an ASU man who deserted the Dublin Guard & fought for the republicans & was killed by the murder gang in Oriel House. Any idea who this ASU man was ?

Hi Gary, Another theory as to why Noel Lemass was murdered was that he was responsible for having Sean Hales killed at Ormond Quay. Ulick O'Connor put that theory to bed in his book 'Execution', a very good read and essential towards understanding the period. Sean Lemass is said to have worked with the man that was responsible for his brothers death when he came into power in 1932, but he managed to 'bottle' it up and tried to forget about it.
I never actually heard about anyone getting bumped off in Oriel House, except a CID man who was shot dead the night that the IRA launched an attack on it in October 1922.

[Gary Deering]

Sorry watchman I did not but that very clearly, the EX ASU man was murdered by someone from Oriel House not in Oriel House.

Re Ulick , he is not the worst, I came across him a few times in work ( I have not seen him in years), might be worth asking him who shot Noel Lemass ! 

The thing about this period is, they where all as bad as each other, after they got used to shooting unarmed men in the War of Independence, The IRA seemed to become desensitized to murder. In the Civil War the Republicans did not seem to mind shooting unarmed soldiers, TD`s, Burning Houses with people in them etc landmines etc. The Free State beat & murdered prisoners. In later years we only have to look at the Broy Harriers to see Oriel House come back & haunt us again.

[watchman1]

Sorry watchman I did not but that very clearly, the EX ASU man was murdered by someone from Oriel House not in Oriel House.

Re Ulick , he is not the worst, I came across him a few times in work ( I have not seen him in years), might be worth asking him who shot Noel Lemass ! 

The thing about this period is, they where all as bad as each other, after they got used to shooting unarmed men in the War of Independence, The IRA seemed to become desensitized to murder. In the Civil War the Republicans did not seem to mind shooting unarmed soldiers, TD`s, Burning Houses with people in them etc landmines etc. The Free State beat & murdered prisoners. In later years we only have to look at the Broy Harriers to see Oriel House come back & haunt us again.

I'll keep an eye out for that in my reading. I've documented 25 killings in an article on Wikipedia-Oriel House CID', but I'm not aware if any of these had changed over from the FSA> Cheers, Watchman1

[Gary Deering]

Watchman Leo Murray was an ex ASU man. I just checked the ASU list against your Wikipedia list.  If you have anyway of checking to see if he deserted the Dublin Guard we have solved it.

[watchman1]

Watchman Leo Murray was an ex ASU man. I just checked the ASU list against your Wikipedia list.  If you have anyway of checking to see if he deserted the Dublin Guard we have solved it.

Gary, I have no information on Leo Murray, other than what appeared in the papers re; his death and inquest. He was only 19 years of age, so I doubt if we are talking about the same person. A high-ranking FSA man, operating out of Portobello Barracks with a group of felow officers were the ones that shot Murray and Murphy on that occasion. They had been hunted by the CID from Oriel House on several occasions. In one encounter at Deansgrange a CID man was shot and he succumbed to his injuries. This would have put Murray and Murphy high up the 'wanted' list. The high-ranking officer referred to would have been the dead mens Brigade Adjutant before the split. Cheers, Watchman1

[Gary Deering]

There was a Leo Murray in the ASU , he was dead by the time the ASU list was compiled in the 1940`s/early 50`s which includes WOI & CW dead on the list, Vinnie Byrne & Charlie Dalton would have been around the 19 mark in 1922 so age does not come into it.