Author Topic: DNA testing - genetic genealogy  (Read 65247 times)

Offline supermoussi

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #279 on: Monday 02 May 11 08:09 BST (UK) »
I have a case where I know two people share a grandmother but don't know if her husband was the grandfather of both of them.  Would the FamilyFinder test be the best one to try?

Do the two people have living fathers? If the 2 people shared the same grandfather then the Y-DNA of their fathers should match so a straightforward Y-DNA test could be used.

Otherwise autosomnal testing gets fiddly and you might want more specialist testing. Why not send a query to someone like:-

http://www.dna-worldwide.com/relationship-testing/

Offline Redroger

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #280 on: Monday 02 May 11 12:16 BST (UK) »
Since we are getting close to page 20, I think a new thread continuation should be opened as this subject will run and run.
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Offline Shropshire Lass

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #281 on: Tuesday 03 May 11 17:23 BST (UK) »
Hi Shropshire Lass
If there is an all-male lineage, a Y-DNA approach would be appropriate unless the two men in grandmother's life had the same Y-DNA (brothers, cousins, uncle/nephew...).

I suspect either one or both of the offspring of the grandmother or at least one of the two people were/are female. Autosomal tests such as Family Finder would do the business in this case but again, if the two men in grandmother's life were closely related, the result might be a little difficult to interpret.

Both fathers are dead but the two people are male so that should make things easier.  One has had the 67 marker test done with FTdna.

I don't think there's any likelihood that the grandfathers could be related - if there are two different men involved.
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Offline Adnepos_Iacobi

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #282 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 14:20 BST (UK) »
Both fathers are dead but the two people are male so that should make things easier.  One has had the 67 marker test done with FTdna.

I don't think there's any likelihood that the grandfathers could be related - if there are two different men involved.

So you have the answer, a Y-DNA haplotype is approprate in the other male.

I'd suggest the same laboratory, to ensure that the markers appear in the same order and have the same names.

If you wish to be parsimonious, to show a difference in the male line, 37 marker comparison would be adequate but for the difference in cost, 67 markers would give you more confidence (but never absolutely complete proof, only proof beyond reasonable doubt) that the grandfather was one and the same.

Markers beyond the 67 will of course not help with the question in hand but might be interesting to answer other questions, which might apply to both individuals if they have the same paternal grandfather.
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Offline Shropshire Lass

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #283 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 19:26 BST (UK) »
So you have the answer, a Y-DNA haplotype is approprate in the other male.

I'd suggest the same laboratory, to ensure that the markers appear in the same order and have the same names.

If you wish to be parsimonious, to show a difference in the male line, 37 marker comparison would be adequate but for the difference in cost, 67 markers would give you more confidence (but never absolutely complete proof, only proof beyond reasonable doubt) that the grandfather was one and the same.

Markers beyond the 67 will of course not help with the question in hand but might be interesting to answer other questions, which might apply to both individuals if they have the same paternal grandfather.

Many thanks.
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Offline Redroger

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #284 on: Monday 09 May 11 11:47 BST (UK) »
I have been told that variations in DNA markers can occur at random and be caused by health and environmental factors rather than by mutation at a steady rate. Is this correct please, and if so where does it leave Y-DNA tests?
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Offline nickgc

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #285 on: Monday 09 May 11 12:29 BST (UK) »
Not an easy question to answer Redroger, but simply put, the STRs (Short Tandem Repeats) used for DNA testing come from multiple locations.  The type of mutation you are speaking about, cause by an environmental factor(e.g. a mutation caused by [say] a stray cosmic ray, would be extremely unlikely to affect all loci where the STR is found.

There are dozens of books for the layman that lay out the process, and you can find good information on the web.  See for example, DNA Profiling section on Wikipedia.

Nick
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Offline Redroger

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #286 on: Monday 09 May 11 12:41 BST (UK) »
Thanks Nick, More reading to do.
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Offline Temic

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Re: DNA testing - genetic genealogy
« Reply #287 on: Wednesday 29 June 11 15:03 BST (UK) »
I have been told that variations in DNA markers can occur at random and be caused by health and environmental factors rather than by mutation at a steady rate. Is this correct please, and if so where does it leave Y-DNA tests?

I think this gets to one of the problems with commercial genealogy DNA tests. It's not simply a matter of a few stray random mutations.

The markers themselves (moreover) only represent fragments of DNA essentially taken at random in places likely (as in, not certain) to yield a result. And it's far from certain that those markers selected epresent a representative sample of DNA. That is, more unquantified variability.

While nevertheless interesting, I personally think that too much faith generally is put in Y-DNA testing and ancestry DNA testing generally, simply because of the way we view DNA, almost as if it were a silver bullet to puzzles.

Above, the words "beyond reasonable doubt" were used: really not sure about that at all; we really have to be careful about language here. It's suggestive of legal-like certainty which simply is not the case - commercial kits are not on a par with forensic tests used in courts of law, to begin with, without their level of certainty. In either case, we're in fact dealing with a balance of probabilities, but in ancestry DNA more so. In the immediately above case, it would certainly not be unreasonable (put it like that) to question the results. If you want anything like "beyond reasonable doubt", you'd essentially have to dig up granddad and do proper DNA tests.

Of course, as another piece of evidence, a postive result from the 67-marker  test in the above case will support previously held ideas: which is in fact probably the best use for such commercial tests. Trawling databases for cold hits with results in your hot little hands simply doesn't bear thinking about, in my view.

Y-DNA usually runs alongside a name interest, i.e. searching to see how many generations back a possible common ancestor occurs, or to chart the different branches of the same name. The obvious problem is that surnames may not represent a genetic lineage, but family history: probably all of us have at least one example of a surname inherited from the female side (in the case of "illegitimate" births) or a surname taken from a stepfather... and they will be the ones we know about from probably the last 200-250 years. You're likely to include people who shouldn't be included and exclude people who should be included (simply by inheriting the "wrong" name as much as anything else). In terms of percentages of a group overall, may be the significance of such errors may not amount to much. But in terms of personal identity (and for a number of people, the name and geographical roots seem to be important) it could be 100% wrong and of consequence for being so.

A case in point. I descend from someone in 17th cent Suffolk. He shares a surname with someone else who lived in the region in the 14th century and who is regarded to be the progenitor of that surname in the Suffolk/Essex area. DNA tests have been and are being done on all males of that surname, including known male descendants of the 14th century progenitor, to link them together. There's a whole "identity" about what belonging to this group means (related to George W Bush! And Winston Churchill! Knights in shining armour in the time of Edward III! Etc.) Result: I'm told my lot (according to the test) are not related.

Really...? I don't think the results show that at all. It in fact only shows that some of the tested DNA markers don't match. And that's all. Short of extracting Y-DNA from this 14th century character and a male descendent on my side of the family, the question is never going to be resolved with any degree of certainty worth talking about.

DNA kits may be helpful in some cases, and no doubt most of the time the people it says are related probably are (it's just trying to find out in which cases the result is "incorrect"!). I personally could be willing to pay for a male descendant of my gt. gt. grandfather's supposed brother and me to find out if they really did have the same father, and would find the results interesting; but enough to convince me one way or the other? Most likely not, especially as we're now talking about 6 generations back to a shared ancestor.

I think it's better to be fully aware of the limitations, to understand the nature of probabilities that we're talking about (in the selection of markers as well as the results themselves); to make sure that we're asking the right kind of question; and to understand that ideally it should be used as just one piece of evidence with its own drawbacks in a story that we're assembling from other historical sources.
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