Author Topic: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax  (Read 6994 times)

Offline ambler

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Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« on: Sunday 17 April 11 17:36 BST (UK) »
Hi all

In tracing my family History i have discovered along with a few other people that my ancestors lived and died at Black Carr between 1860 and 1875 has anyone info on the farms or houses on Black Carr at the time?

Ian
WEST YORKSHIRE ,YORK ,AMBLER ,KERSHAW FAMILY

Offline Marmaduke 123

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Re: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« Reply #1 on: Monday 18 April 11 13:07 BST (UK) »
There's another post about Black Carr Thornton

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,475493.msg3768406.html#msg3768406

Hope this helps

Anne
Halifax/Huddersfield area West Yorkshire
Monmouthshire, Gloucestershire, Berkshire and nearby areas.
Bilcliffe one name study all areas.

Offline johnnyboy

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Re: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 20 April 11 19:00 BST (UK) »
Hi Ambler: Welcome to Rootschat. I've posted a number of the replies on the thread whose link Maramaduke posted above. Who might your Black Carr relatives be?

Black Carr is an area to the slightly southeast of the main part of Thornton. Black Carr is also the name of a farm in Black Carr. A carr is marshy area, and Black Carr seems to be at the bottom of a down slope from Thornton.

You can see both the Black Carr area and Black Carr Farm if you go to
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?coords=409900,432700. Black Carr is bounded by Deep Lane, Malt Kiln Lane, Pit Lane, and the Denholme-Brighouse Road. I've never been to Thornton, but Black Carr  seems to be closer to Deep Lane. If you enlarge the map two clicks and drag it slightly to the right, you can get a close-up look.

The following link has info on the current value of Upper Sandal Magna Farm in Black Carr: http://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/upper-sandal-farm/deep-lane/thornton/bradford/bd13-3sr/27357449.

The grave sales database of Mt. Zion Chapel in Ogden, a few miles from Thornton, lists sales to people named Bancroft, Bates, Priestley, and Ingham whose address is given as Black Carr, Thornton. That's in addition to a few of my Dobsons who lived in Black Carr.

You can search Mt. Zion Chapel's grave sales, as well as the burials database. Go here: http://www.mountzionhalifax.org.uk/. Links to both are in a menu on the left of the home page.

I've searched the Internet but haven't found much else on Black Carr, though I did learn that there is another Black Carrr Farm somewhere in Norfolk.

Regards,
John  :o :o :o
ENGLAND (all Yorkshire but one)
SLATER: Ovenden, Halifax, and Massachusetts
DOBSON, LONGBOTTOM: Thornton (Bradford)
DRURY: Darton, Halifax, and Massachusetts
NEVIL(LE): Wigan (Lancs.), Darton
MEGSON: Dewsbury, Ossett
GARSIDE: Woolley, West Bretton

SCOTLAND
ROBERT HENDRY: b. 1856, Who-knows-where-shire, Scotland; 1882 to US
DEMPSTER, HOUSTON: Lesmahagow, Glasgow, and Massachusetts
GALBRAITH, MEIKLE: Kirkmichael, Ayr.; Hamilton, Glasgow, and Massachusetts

Offline ambler

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Re: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 23 April 11 21:47 BST (UK) »
Thanks John
In response to your first question my Great Grandfather Albert Ambler was born at Black Carr 1869 his Grandfather Henry Ambler died there in Jan 1875 and his son and Alberts father John Ambler died there in March also 1875.I am not sure whether they owned or rented a farm in Black Carr or whether it was Black Carr farm.Johns will of 1875 had 2 neighbouring farmers as executors a Thomas Lingard and a Thomas Downs.I am trying to establish how long the property was in the family as in the 1841 1851 and 1861 cencus the area seems to move between Squirral and Green Clough head i think it is the same place only the area name has changed i would appreciate your thoughts John.
Very interesting thread as all the discussion places Mount Zion ,Market st Thornton,Kipping are all very linked in with the Amblers.
WEST YORKSHIRE ,YORK ,AMBLER ,KERSHAW FAMILY


Offline Edgy

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Re: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« Reply #4 on: Monday 25 April 11 17:17 BST (UK) »
Hi Ambler,

I too have people in my tree who lived in the Black Carr/ Squirrel/Green Clough Head area, and also came to the conclusion that it was the same place which was known by different names.

They were attenders at Queenshead General Baptist Church.

Coincidentally my G.g. grandfather was married to a Hannah Lingard....not sure if there's a link to your Lingards there or not.

Offline johnnyboy

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Re: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 27 April 11 16:47 BST (UK) »
Addition at end in boldface.

Hi Ian and Edgy and Marmaduke: I've never been to Thornton nor am I a geographer, so I don't know the borders of topographic areas. But for convenience sake I've come to regard Black Carr as being bounded by Malt Kiln Lane on the north (closest to the center of Thornton), Pit Lane on the east, the Brighouse-Denholme Road on the south, and Deep Lane on the west.

Squirrel Hill Farm is just across Deep Lane from Sandal Magna Farm, which on my topographic map looks to be next to Black Carr Farm. Green Clough is northwest of Black Carr Farm.

The distances between these places is measured in hundreds of yards if that.

My images of the 1841-1881 censuses are focused on my ancestor Joseph Dobson and other poss. Dobson relations, all living in Keelham, which is a section of Black Carr. Unfortunately, none of their near neighbors were Amblers. Amblers might have lived nearby but were enumerated on different census pages.

Not sure if anyone is interested: I did notice a few Lingards on the census images--two men named Robert Lingard living a house or two from each other.

In 1841 one Robert Lingard, age 30 and born Yorkshire, was enumerated in Keelham Hall, living with the family of Robert Rushworth, next door to John Dobson, bookkeeper and future tax collector. On the other side of John Dobson was my ancestor Josephs Dobson.

In 1851, Robert Lingard, age 40, a wool comber and born Stansfield, Yorkshire, is living two houses away from tax collector John Dobson. The address is simply Shay. Stansfield is four and a half miles southwest of Halifax.

Two houses away from the first Robert, at Keelham Hall, is a second Robert Lindgard, age 63, a farmer of 24 acres, born Stansfield. He may be related to the first Robert, possibly father or uncle. I'd say more likely the uncle, since the older Robert Lingard has two teenage sons living with him.

In 1861, Robert Lingard the farmer (with 22 acres) and John Dobson the tax collector live next door to one another. The younger Robert Lingard is elsewhere.

In 1871, no sign of either of the Robert Lingards in my census images. Possibly because younger Dobsons (sons of John and Joseph Dobson) are filling the available housing in Keelham with their own families.

After looking at the 1881 census, on which I found Thomas Lingard enumerated at Keel Hall Farm House, with the occupation of farmer of 24 acres, I think this is person who witnessed the John Ambler's will.

Also in the 1881 census, e these your Amblers? I found Albert Ambler, born Thornton 1869, and his brother Arthur, living in Thornton with their aunt, Sarah Butterfield and cousin Anne Butterfield. Their address is Little Hill Lane.

Regards,
John  :o :o :o
ENGLAND (all Yorkshire but one)
SLATER: Ovenden, Halifax, and Massachusetts
DOBSON, LONGBOTTOM: Thornton (Bradford)
DRURY: Darton, Halifax, and Massachusetts
NEVIL(LE): Wigan (Lancs.), Darton
MEGSON: Dewsbury, Ossett
GARSIDE: Woolley, West Bretton

SCOTLAND
ROBERT HENDRY: b. 1856, Who-knows-where-shire, Scotland; 1882 to US
DEMPSTER, HOUSTON: Lesmahagow, Glasgow, and Massachusetts
GALBRAITH, MEIKLE: Kirkmichael, Ayr.; Hamilton, Glasgow, and Massachusetts

Offline ambler

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Re: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 28 April 11 19:33 BST (UK) »
Hi ALL
The 1871 census is the only one at this stage that i have found a direct mention of Black Carr it would be very interesting to find a reference in any other census please advise if anyone has found one.
In 1871 from what i can read
HOUSE 101 IS NEW CLOSE with the Hesseltine family farmer 13 acres.
HOUSE  102 IS KEELHAM   with the   Lingard family{Thomas) farmer 22 acres.
HOUSE 103 BLACK CARR with Bolton family (Thomas)farmer 20 acres.
HOUSE  104 BLACK CARR Ambler family {Harriet}farmer 26 acres.
John Ambler husband of Harriet Stone Mason working on Barden Hall at census.Henry living on the farm.
HOUSE 105 BLACK CARR Mr Mrs Hadley
HOUSE 106 MALT KILN LANE Mr Mrs Hardy.
HOUSE  107 MALT KILN LANE Beathem ? family farming 13 acres.
House 108   MALT KILN LANE Spencer family.
John i think your geography is spot on the numbers stated are not street numbers but the sequence on the census returns.
Has anyone viewed a book that mentions Black Carr called "Forgotten Villages E                 
WEST YORKSHIRE ,YORK ,AMBLER ,KERSHAW FAMILY

Offline Edgy

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Re: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« Reply #7 on: Friday 29 April 11 10:14 BST (UK) »
Hi Ambler,

the 1901 census shows George Ambler at Squirrel Hill Farm.... and 2 buildings further down is Black Carr Farm. I'm not sure if this is what you were asking?
I think I'm having a senior moment (no make that day) !

My folk were at Shay Farm, a couple or so pages further on.

The only other mention of 'Black Carr' in my notes, is  that My GG grandfather George Brearley died at Black Carr in May 1859.

Hope this is of help.

Offline johnnyboy

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Re: Black Carr Thornton or Haiifax
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 30 April 11 18:57 BST (UK) »
Hi all: Here's a link to an ordnance map from the 1800s that shows the relative location of the places being discussed in this thread: http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?coords=409900,432700

Click twice on the magnifying scale, and then left click on the map and drag it diagonally upward to the right until Black Carr--the area beneath Malt Kiln Lane--is centered on your screen. Near Deep Lane, you'll see Black Carr Farm and Lower Sandal Farm near one another.  Green Clough Head is across Malt Kiln Lane, Squirrel Hill Farm is across Deep Lane from Black Carr Farm. Shay Farm is across the Brighouse-Denholme Road.

You can go to Multimap.co for a current view of the area: http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=MMREDR#JnE9LnRob3JudG9uJTJjK2JyYWRmb3JkJTJjK3VrJTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTUzLjkzOTI3Njc3Njk3ODglN2UtNDQuMzU5ODc4NTQlN2UyNC4zNDEwOTQxOTYzNDI5JTdlLTEwMy41OTgxNTk3OQ==

If you center Multimap on the Black Carr area and switch to Bird's Eye View, you can zoom in to see that Black Carr Farm and Lower Sandal Farm actually cheek by jowl with one another.

Going back to Ian's reply #6 here: I think that one of the three houses enumerated in the 1871 census as Black Carr is actually Lower Sandal Farm. I also think that it is the house (House 104) that John and Harriet Ambler lived in. The 1871 enumerator seems to have been working up the east side of Deep Lane to Malt Kiln Lane (though New Close Farm is an outlier that's across a field east of Deep Lane).

Logically, the first house in from Deep Lane, the house occupied by the Bolton family, should be Black Carr Farm. The Ambler's would be next in at Lower Sandal Farm. Lower Sandal Farm is a very large structure; perhaps Mr. and Mrs. Hadley, the third party living at Black Carr, lived in a section of Lower Sandal Farm.

The key word here is "logically." Nothing has convinced me, however, that the U.K. censuses were done logically.  ???

I've seen mention on the U.K. National Archives site of Black Carr (spelled Black Carre) in a rental transaction going back to 1597. Go here: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=199-spst_3&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18#-1

Search "Black Carre" for two results on the page.

Regards,
John  :o :o :o
ENGLAND (all Yorkshire but one)
SLATER: Ovenden, Halifax, and Massachusetts
DOBSON, LONGBOTTOM: Thornton (Bradford)
DRURY: Darton, Halifax, and Massachusetts
NEVIL(LE): Wigan (Lancs.), Darton
MEGSON: Dewsbury, Ossett
GARSIDE: Woolley, West Bretton

SCOTLAND
ROBERT HENDRY: b. 1856, Who-knows-where-shire, Scotland; 1882 to US
DEMPSTER, HOUSTON: Lesmahagow, Glasgow, and Massachusetts
GALBRAITH, MEIKLE: Kirkmichael, Ayr.; Hamilton, Glasgow, and Massachusetts