Author Topic: You decide!  (Read 3484 times)

Offline rla10

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You decide!
« on: Saturday 16 April 11 23:50 BST (UK) »
This will be long winded, so just warning you in advance  ;D  That said, I do really need help, and am incapable of making a decision myself. Well, settle in...

I have traced the Lake ancestry, who are direct ancestors of mine, back to the 1500s. This is where it becomes complicated. This story revolves around three brothers, two of which lived at Great Fanton Hall in North Benfleet, Essex. Their names are  John, Richard and William Lake, all apparently born around 1530/1540.

Now, my earliest Lake ancestor is one William Lake of Theydon Garnon, Essex. This is where his descended family lived until 1800. I can find no baptism for William, or his son, Richard, for that matter, but given the small scale of the village and the name, two wills of William and Richard strongly suggest father and son with the dates.

Background filled in, here's the main problem. This family, John, Richard and William and some other apparent siblings, have been well documented all over the world. They appear to have originated from Lincolnshire which may account for the lack of records in Essex. The problem lies in establishing a link between my William and the mysterious William of this family. Here are the facts that I think point strongly towards my William being him:

The dates - my William died in 1591. The aforementioned Richard and John died in the mid and then late 1590s also. This would suggest they are siblings to me.

The wealth - my William in his will left three houses, one which was the White House (formerly Grosvenor House) in Hornchuch, which didn't sound cheap. Included in his will are various other bequests of horses and farming stuffs (he was a yeoman) and he was certainly well-to-do. This suggests that he came from this family as they owned Great Fanton Hall and were descended from Lords, Sirs and Earls.

His status - although a yeoman is slightly lower down than his brothers might have been, or you would expect from such a family, it might have been because he was the younger sibling and I have read younger siblings being described as 'inferior family members'. So perhaps he inherited something which accounts for his moderate wealth, but the majority went to his older brothers.

His will - leading on from the former, I noticed that he divides his wealth between his two sons, Thomas and Richard, really rather equally. This may be very contrived, but could this be because perhaps William was on the receiving end on the primogeniture way in which his father's will was made? And that he doesn't want the same for his sons?

Here's what puts me off:

In Richard's will, after my Williams death, he makes a bequest to his 'brother William' However, it is followed by an illegible word which looks like 'widow' in the same sentence it mentions his 'sister Greene' and someone has suggested that the bequest is to his brother William's widow which puts the theory back on track.

If you've made it this far, then well done. Just one more thought - I have found various William Lakes leaving wills in Essex, most are too early or too late. One that is in 1582 and also seems to have a son called Richard still puts me off. This is in Hornchurch, and given that he had land there it worries me that this could be him. However, having viewed the will he doesn't seem very wealthy and is not a yeoman (if memory serves me right). The Richard who I know definitely is directly in my tree is also a yeoman and this is carried on down through the generations.

What I need you opinion on is whether you think there is ample evidence to conclude that he is the William of Richard and John.  There are no baptisms as I think it's too early - I have tried. Nor can I find a marriage for William.

So, your opinion?

Ryan


Offline Billyblue

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Re: You decide!
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 17 April 11 00:30 BST (UK) »
Well Ryan, sounds too complicated for me   ;D   ;D

However I note in your second last paragraph you say "he doesn't seem very wealthy and is not a yeoman"
In the 1500s, even leaving a few pounds would seem to indicate a moderate amount of wealth.
are you bearing this in mind?

Dawn M
Denys (France); Rossier/Rousseau (Switzerland); Montgomery (Antrim, IRL & North Sydney NSW);  Finn (Co.Carlow, IRL & NSW); Wilson (Leicestershire & NSW); Blue (Sydney NSW); Fisher & Barrago & Harrington(all Tipperary, IRL)

Offline rla10

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Re: You decide!
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 17 April 11 00:39 BST (UK) »
Hi Dawn,

Thanks for reading! The person I said who didn't seem very wealthy was in contrast to my William of Theydon Garnon in the sense that the former left things such as cupboards, pots and pans and other such items, whereas William in TG left three separate houses with accompanying land (one of which he rented) and left at least two horses to his sons and ploughing gear. Then he left sums of 40 shillings to various grandchildren and five pounds to Richard whom I mentioned in the post (and that seemed one of his more modest bequests) So as I say, TG William was definitely wealthier than Hornchurch William, and Hornchurch William is the only contender to my William to fill the position of William of Fanton Hall  :P ;D

Offline Billyblue

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Re: You decide!
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 17 April 11 01:32 BST (UK) »
Ah well, best of luck.  Sometimes it's hard to even hazard a guess    :D

It's interesting that people specifically left their things like pots and pans and cupboards to others in their wills - things that these days would not even get a mention.  Makes one look at 'wealth' with a different eye, doesn't it.

Dawn M
Denys (France); Rossier/Rousseau (Switzerland); Montgomery (Antrim, IRL & North Sydney NSW);  Finn (Co.Carlow, IRL & NSW); Wilson (Leicestershire & NSW); Blue (Sydney NSW); Fisher & Barrago & Harrington(all Tipperary, IRL)


Offline Ermintrude46

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Re: You decide!
« Reply #4 on: Monday 18 April 11 20:07 BST (UK) »
I've got a similar conundrum with my Heasmans in the mid 1500s, siblings/cousins with the same names make it very hard to tie everyone in neatly.  Given the life expectancy in that period, I wouldn't assume that people who die within a short time of each other are all the same age.  Are there any strong pointers in the will for Richard son of William as to which William (Hornchurch or TG will) is his father i.e. same lands/house/goods mentioned? Don't be too hung up on the status of the will writer, my Heasmans went from several generations of yeoman to Francis who called himself a gentleman and back to husbandmen in just a couple of generations.  What survives in the way of manorial records for TG and Hornchurch?  These can be really useful in tying people down as relationships/home town are often given in the court proceedings and rental rolls will note when someone has died well before parish records were kept/survive.
Ermy
Baldwin / Dixey / Rumble (Berkshire)
Burnsides / Corps / Harker / HINDLE / Longstaff / Martin / Page (Co. Durham)
Chalker / Glyde / Morris / Pitman / Stroud (Dorset)
BARTON / Heasman / Wheatley (East Sussex)
Baby / Silver / Silvester (Hampshire)
BARTON / Cheeseman / Head / JONES / Kidder / Wood (Kent)
Chalker (Somerset)
Chatburn / HINDLE (West Yorkshire)
Curtis / Davis / Stevens (Wiltshire)
Arcules / Carter / HINTON (Worcestershire)

~.~. main lines in CAPS .~.~

Offline rla10

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Re: You decide!
« Reply #5 on: Monday 18 April 11 20:24 BST (UK) »
Hi Ermy,

I don't think I have a copy of William of Hornchurch (by the way, looking again he is actually from Upminster - I don't know why I kept saying Hornchurch...) so I can't quite remember what exactly he left. I'll have to go back to the ERO.

At the moment, looking at William and Richard's wills of TG I can only see similar bequests in bed steads, trundle beds etc to his children (these are after thoughts after leaving a house and land etc)

What puzzles me more is that he names a Henry Lake as his kinsman and I have never come across a Henry Lake before.

I have just searched SEAX (ERO online) whilst writing this and have found a document of the deeds of farm called Masons that Richard of TG leaves. In this document it also mentions other farms that William of TG owned and left but not mentioned by Richard:

Deeds of Farm called MASONS, and lands called Long Mead (6a.), Ten Acres (10a.), Five Acres (5a.), Pease Field (4a.), Coles Mead (2a.) and Dawes Land (8a.) Theydon camon Marshalls Farm, co.herts., 1706

Includes copy of will of William LAKE of Theydon Garnon, yeoman
Date From   1563
Date To   1833

These mentioned altogether are property of William and Richard yet neither owned all. So I think perhaps they could be father and son and so Richard's father is William of TG. I'll have to get this document, I've never seen it before.

EDIT: Also, regarding manorial records, I've simply no idea. These have crossed my mind but I have never used them before, and didn't know what information was contained, nor how to even go about searching them. The problem is, I don't know whether William's generation, if he is the brother of John and Richard, moved down from Lincolnshire.

Offline Ermintrude46

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Re: You decide!
« Reply #6 on: Monday 18 April 11 20:52 BST (UK) »
Bit here on manorial records at TNA, doesn't look to include Essex on line tho' but might be worth emailing in http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mdr/ Manorial records can include a wide variety of documents.  The court rolls, from the quarterly held 'courts' held by the Lord of the Manor are fascinating reading.  The court was where tenants came to take up new lands (on inheritance or by copyhold), relinquish unwanted properties, set community rules about when to let the cattle into the common field after harvest, complain that their neighbours had a made a dung hill in the highway (yes, one of my Pitman ancestors is so named and shamed!), elect the parish officers of constable, etc etc.  Tenants often took out a rental for three lives, naming themselves and two of their children.  When the main tenant died the next would have to pay a heriot (fixed fee) and apply to the court to take up their inheritence.  Rental rolls will often give a long list of who has held a property and how they are related to each other.  Single women and widows could and did hold property in their own names but for married women their husband would stand in court for them.  I would start by trying to track down manorial records for Theydon Garnon as that is where you are sure of your ancestors.
Ermy
Baldwin / Dixey / Rumble (Berkshire)
Burnsides / Corps / Harker / HINDLE / Longstaff / Martin / Page (Co. Durham)
Chalker / Glyde / Morris / Pitman / Stroud (Dorset)
BARTON / Heasman / Wheatley (East Sussex)
Baby / Silver / Silvester (Hampshire)
BARTON / Cheeseman / Head / JONES / Kidder / Wood (Kent)
Chalker (Somerset)
Chatburn / HINDLE (West Yorkshire)
Curtis / Davis / Stevens (Wiltshire)
Arcules / Carter / HINTON (Worcestershire)

~.~. main lines in CAPS .~.~

Offline rla10

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Re: You decide!
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 19 April 11 22:10 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Ermy.

Picked up photocopies of the deeds of the land of William and Richard Lake. It appears that William acquired at least one of his lands from a man named Edward (surname escapes me) so not inherited there. Will take a while to transcribe/decipher.

I'm starting to wonder if the dates etc are a coincidence (which has always been at the back of my mind) and that William Lake was born in TG before the records began. That said, I cannot find a marriage for Richard and his wife Anne in TG which is odd considering they would have married in 1600 or so and the records exist for that. Very odd.

Do you think I might find that information in the manorial records then?

Offline Ermintrude46

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Re: You decide!
« Reply #8 on: Friday 22 April 11 21:43 BST (UK) »
It was common for marriages to take place in the bride's parish so if Anne didn't come from Theydon Garnon they could well have been married elsewhere so would be worth checking surrounding parishes for a possible marriage.  I wouldn't expect the manorial records to say when someone had married, but if some of the property was originally in Anne's family you might be able to trace the date when ownership was noted as Richard which could give a clue.
Ermy
Baldwin / Dixey / Rumble (Berkshire)
Burnsides / Corps / Harker / HINDLE / Longstaff / Martin / Page (Co. Durham)
Chalker / Glyde / Morris / Pitman / Stroud (Dorset)
BARTON / Heasman / Wheatley (East Sussex)
Baby / Silver / Silvester (Hampshire)
BARTON / Cheeseman / Head / JONES / Kidder / Wood (Kent)
Chalker (Somerset)
Chatburn / HINDLE (West Yorkshire)
Curtis / Davis / Stevens (Wiltshire)
Arcules / Carter / HINTON (Worcestershire)

~.~. main lines in CAPS .~.~