Patrick and Eliza Cain/Kane COMPLETED

[portybelle]

(I think she may also be Elizabeth in the 1871 census). 

Mo

I have a copy of the census record for 1891 and it is actually very difficult to make out Patrick's age thanks to the usual scoring out! Although I think ancestry lists it as 52 in its transcription, when I look at he actual record it could just as easily be 47, taking us back to that 1844/45 possible birth date. It's very hard to tell though.

Can you tell me where they were in the census of 1871 and if any children are listed? I have looked in the free ancestry site at the library but hadn't managed to find them.

I am very grateful for your help and advice so far. It never fails to amaze me how helpful and knowledgable people on this site are!

[Gibel]

1871 census 45 Bevington St Liverpool
Peter Cain H M 29 cooper bn Ireland
Elziabeth wife 28 bn Ireland
James son 6
William son 3
Patrick son 2
all children born Liverpool

Gibel

[Gibel]

1881 census as Caine 8 Court 3 House Bond St Liverpool
Peter Caine 40 cooper Leotrim (I think) Ireland
Louisa  wife bn Wexford
James 15 crossing out of what could be Joseph or John), William 14, Mary 9, Henry 7, James 5, Peter 3, Louisa 0

Children all bn Liverpool

The children's names tie in young Louisa being Elizabeth by 1891 as is the wife. maybe they were Elizabeth Louisa?

Gibel

[portybelle]

Regarding the Louisa/Eliza on the 1881 census- I wonder if there has just been a mishearing of the names? Children's names more or less match as you say - except that James should be Joseph my Great Grandfather!

I'm looking back at all the various records I have.

So in 1891 census I have Joseph (born Liverpool) aged 15 (who I believe to be my great grandfather) living with his father Patrick, a cooper, (widower), age hard to make out but could be 47 or 52.

When Joseph marries in 1899 aged 23 his father is listed as Peter Cain - not marked as deceased - and mother Eliza Cain ms Cullen deceased.

1901 census has Joseph Cain - definitely the right one! - aged 25 born England, a boilermaker, married by this time to Isabella Duncan. Has various children including my grandmother so can say with confidence this is him!

Patrick Cain (or Kane)'s death in 1902 has him aged 57, a cooper, widower of Elizabeth Cullen.

I think I need to find Joseph's brothers and sisters records and see what I can get from them. thanks everyone for your help so far. Another trip to the records office required!

[Gibel]

I think some of the children's births may be registered as Caine. Some of those on www.freebmd.org.uk seem to fit the children on the census.

It might also be worth consulting St Anthony's RC church baptisms to see if the children were baptised where their parents married.

Gibel

[portybelle]

Once again thank you - I have learned about so many useful websites since I joined Rootschat!

[portybelle]

I have received a transcript of the marriage cert from St Anthony's which would appear to confirm that Peter Cain is the Patrick Cain I have on my tree - or at least his parents names match the names of Patrick! I suppose there is still the chance that they could be brothers but I think it's one of those cases of perhaps a middle name being used or just a name put down in error. I am planning another trip to the records office where I will check out exactly what is on Joseph Cain's death record and try to find his siblings' death details too then I might be able to confirm that Patrick/Peter is the same person.

Thanks again to everyone for their help!

[portybelle]

I found this from Ambly on another thread and it seems to clear up my Peter/Patrick mystery!

Hi there

"Patrick" often became "Peter" in Scotland , especially in the earlier records; they were quite interchangeable - though in my experience, once an individual started using "Peter", he tended to stick with it, rather than chop n' change.    Have come across this quite a bit.

http://medievalscotland.org/problem/names/padraig.shtml
"In modern Scottish Gaelic, Patrick exists in several forms: Pádruig, Páruig, Para, and Pádair or Pátair. This last form led to confusion with English Peter, and the two names were often treated as equivalent in the 18th and 19th centuries "

Cheers
AMBLY

[portybelle]

I wonder if anyone can help me find Patrick Cain and Eliza(beth) Cullen on the census before they were married hopefully with their parents to help me out a bit with their ages and place of birth too. I have been looking but can't seem to find anything obvious!

Patrick (or maybe Peter) was born c 1845 in Drumshanbo, Ireland. His parents were Edward Cain and Mary McCrann. I know that Mary moved to Edinburgh after she was widowed as she is on the 1891 and possibly the 1881 census there. Patrick also is on the 1891 census in Edinburgh.

Eliza (or Elizabeth) Cullen was presumably born around a similar time also in Ireland and her parents from her marriage record in 1863 were James and Catherine Cullen (written Cullin on that record). I don't have a maiden surname for Catherine as I've not been able to find Eliza's death - I know she had a final child around 1880 and had died by 1891.

So I was hoping to find them on 1851 or 1861 census in Liverpool but no joy. I hope some detective can help! Thanks.