Gibraltar - Military Births

[Dean1]

I hope someone may be able to advise me here.

I want to look up a "possible birth" in Gibraltar.   James Rowland b 1765 was a serving soldier all his life and his place of birth is not known - he joined the 83rd Foot himself in 1783 signing on in Newtown, Montgomeryshire.   I think it is very likely that James father was also a military man and it has been suggested to me that, at that time, Gibraltar is the most likely place.
(James was only alive for one census - 1841 - which does not give his place of birth - he was living in Gt Baddow, Essex, in 1841 and for "birth" it says he was born out of county.

Don't seem to be on NA website (but am useless at navigating this) and wonder what the alternatives are for looking up military births in Gibraltar.

Grateful for any help at all.

Sue 

[km1971]

... he joined the 83rd Foot himself in 1783 signing on in Newtown, Montgomeryshire.

Hi Sue

Where did you get this information from? A search suggests that the 83rd Regiment of Foot were disbanded in 1783, and another 83rd did not re-form until 1793.

If you suspect you have a regimental birth you should search the records on sites such as Findmypast. These go back to 1761 - but in England & Wales only. From other places they start c1790. But they are not complete.

Ken

[Dean1]

Hi Ken,

An old handwritten document has just come to light giving the information on the military history of the Rowland family.   It was written by his youngest son Thomas.   5 sons  of James Rowland served in the military.   This lists their regiments and actions they were involved in, deaths etc.   The son who wrote it was a Sgt Major.   I tend to believe it but he may, of course, have got his father's regiment wrong - I just hope not and would be surprised.   This is where I got the information from about the 83rd Regiment.     I know from this document that he served in Lord Hill's column in the Peninsular War and was wounded at Salamanca (in the hip).    I have just re-looked at it and it is definitely the 83rd regiment but I have mistyped his enlistment date which should have read 1787 - I am sorry.

Like you, I find the existence of the 83rd is doubtful during the time I quoted.  I believe this regiment is now the Royal Ulster Rifles or possible Royal Irish Rangers.

Findmypast does not give anyone who could be MY James I am told although it does give two.    There are 4 of us trying to find James (we are all descended from him in some way) and have run out of ideas although someone has suggested that he was born in Gibraltar because his father was almost certainly military as well (we do not know who is father was for sure).

I have just acquired, this afternoon, (even if it does not relate to my James) a whole list of Gibraltar military and civil contacts (depending on religion) that people can contact.   It may well be useful for others - it is quite a long list - IS IT OK TO POST IT ON HERE OR IS THERE A SPECIAL PLACE.   

Sue

[neil1821]

Hi,
I would agree with Ken, that something doesn't add up here.
Either the enlistment date or his first regiment must be wrong. A regiment numbered the 83rd simply didn't exist between 1783-93.
It's possible of course he enlisted in some other regiment in 1787 and was in the 83rd at a later date.

You mentioned he's on the 1841 census, do you know when he died? Pre or post 1847?

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Gibraltar is the most likely place for his birth, unless you have some info that points in that direction. Could be one of many places.

[Dean1]

I would agree with you that something doesn't seem right here.  I have also noticed that the 83rd was not around although I believe it might have become the Perth Volunteers at one stage around James' joining up time.  I suspect he joined a Militia and eventually went to the 83rd.   One thing I forgot to mention is that all five of the Rowlands were Tailors - it was their trade in the Army as well as soldiers (not sure that this is particularly relevant however - unless their is some sort of Guild Tailors belong to).   One other thing I know is that he did not marry overseas - for some reason he was in Stamford, Lincolnshire in 1797 because his first child was born there and he married in Bishop's Stortford in 1795 - have marriage certificate.

I don't really know what to think about moving his search further forward.   A co-researcher says she thinks he was born in Gibraltar (not entirely sure why!).    James' own children and grandchildren were born all over the place - Malta, Zante and more.    I have a feeling this search cannot be moved forward until we know who his father was - at the moment it looks as though his mother re-married when he was 15 and he acquired a stepfather (also army).

Sue

[apwright]

Something else not quite right:

... he served in Lord Hill's column in the Peninsular War and was wounded at Salamanca (in the hip).

Hill's column wasn't at Salamanca - it was guarding Badajoz at the time. Hill commanded the Right Column at Vitoria a year later. But I suppose your man could have been present attached to a different unit, or if he was a Staff officer...

Adrian

[Dean1]

Hi Adrian and Neil,

You asked me Neil, when James Rowland died - it was pre 1847, only just - he died 17.7.1846 in Great Baddow, Essex.

Adrian:  to answer your point:   I have, from his youngest son's comments that he served in Talavera, Busaco, Cuidad Rodrigo, Badagos.   His rank was Sgt. Master Tailor.    Probably not a Staff Sgt.

Sue

[neil1821]

You asked me Neil, when James Rowland died - it was pre 1847, only just - he died 17.7.1846 in Great Baddow, Essex.

OK, so there's no need for us to look for him on the MGS medal roll (in any regiment!)

Until it's independently confirmed by other records, I think to need to be a bit skeptical of this handwritten history you have. Don't accept it as face value.

James' own children and grandchildren were born all over the place - Malta, Zante and more.

To be honest, I'd be looking for his kids in the regimental births first. That would at least confirm James' regiment at given points in time.

[Dean1]

I have looked very carefully at what I have.   In fact I was wrong - James children were not born overseas, not one of them - it was some of his grandchildren who were born overseas.    Apart from his oldest son Robert b 1797 in Stamford, Lincolnshire, all the others (including those who did not join up) were born in Great Baddow, Essex.    I have the military records of the 5 who joined up and have gone carefully through them and there is no clue to parentage at all.

I am pretty sure his father (James Rowland's father) was a serving soldier.   I think, but am not absolutely positive, his mother, Elizabeth (no maiden name) remarried in 1777 at All Saints Church, Stamford, Lincolnshire to a James Sutton Webster.   He was a soldier - it does not give his regiment but I bet it was the same Regiment as James Rowland's father served in.   I think, but am again not entirely sure, that he served in the 49th Foot which I believe became the Hertford Regiment at some stage.   James Rowland and his wife, Elizabeth Joceylin (variable spelling) married in Hertfordshire and Elizabeth came from Essex.

You can see why I am so muddled and am grasping at straws - just don't know where to go next.    Am wondering about the American War for James Rowland.


Sue