Baptism - William Archer TURNEY - 1823 St Albans

[thesearcher]

Hi,

I am trying to confirm the birth of William Turney who in the 1841 census lived with his parents John and Mary Ann Turney and sisters Naomi and Lois in Leverstock Green. HO107/438/11/21 page 14

I have traced the christening of Naomi (1817 St Michael,St Albans) and Lois (1819 no parish,St Albans) on IGI showing parents John Turney and Mary Ann, but cannot trace a christening for William.  I think Archer may well be his mother's surname but he may not be the son of John and Mary Ann - although his marriage certificate shows John as his father.

He was married in 1845 to Emily Crouch in Luton and his full name shown as William Archer Turney age 22 so he would have been born about 1823 (Father shown as John Turney on the marriage certificate).

Can anyone help please.

Many Thanks

Peter

[CaroleW]

In 1841 - John Turney is 75 and wife Mary is 65.  Allowing for the rounding down of ages - that could put them both up to 4yrs older

William is 15 (up to 19)

Far more likely that John & Mary were his grandparents given Mary's age when William was born

[thesearcher]

Hi Carole

Many thanks for your reply. I had hoped not to write a long complicated reply but there are several facts that make it difficult to put the pieces together. Like you I was of the opinion that they all might be living with their grandparents in 1841 in view of the age difference of Naomi, Lois and William compared with John and Mary. The following is what I know

24 Oct 1815 – John Turney of St Albans marries Mary Ann Archer at St George Hanover Square (parish Records) – Is this the parents marriage??

20th April 1817 – Naomi Turney Christened, St Albans, Father John Turney, Mother Mary Ann (IGI)

14th March 1819 – Lois Turney Christened, St Michaels, St Albans, Father John Turney, Mother Mary Ann (IGI)

c1823  – William Archer Turney born – no trace of christening on internet - ? require  HALS lookup

1841 Census – Leverstock Green
John              Turney                75 Ag Lab
Mary Ann   Turney   65
Naomi   Turney   20 Milliner
Lois   Turney   20 Milliner
William   Turney   15 Pipemaker app
Charlotte    Dighton   35
George   Greenhill   30 Carver/Gilder

31st July 1841 – Naomi Turney marries George Greenhill – St Marylebone - shows her Father as John Turney - Farmer (marriage Cert)

1st December 1843 – death of John Turney of Leverstock Green - farmers Labourer  age 78 – probably the correct one (death cert)

8th May 1845 –William Archer Turney marries Emily Crouch, St Mary’s, Luton, shows his Father as John Turney – Farmer (marriage Cert)

9th Oct 1845 – Lois Turney marries Charles Boulton, St Michaels, shows her Father as John Turney - Farmer (marriage Cert)

1851 Census Norfolk St, Marylebone
 Naomi Greenhill (shown as Maria on census !) and family living in London with Mary Anne Turney who is described  as a Widow and the Mother-in-Law of the head who is George Greenhill her age is 74.

1851 Census 53 London Road Eastwickham
 Naomi Greenhill 5 year old daughter of Naomi Greenhill (Turney) is described as Niece  staying with  Zilpah Dover MAYSEY age 46.

Zilpah was Christened - 18 March 1804 St Peters, St Albans as Zilpah Dover ARCHER father William ARCHER mother Sarah (IGI)

 This seems to llink the ARCHER name - is Zilpah the sister of Naomi and Lois’s mother Mary Ann mentioned in the Christening extracts??  William may or may not have the same mother?

1861 Census 20 Egerton St , Hulme
 Naomi Greenhill (now shown as Lavinia on census!) and family now living in Manchester with Widowed Mother-in-Law Mary Anne Turney who is shown as age 38 (not possible!!)

23rd February 1866 – Death of Mary Anne Turney at 20 Egerton St, Hulme AGE 96 but the husband’s name is shown as WILLIAM  on the death cert. This would indicate if correct that John Turney in the 1841 census was not the husband of Mary Ann. The age also has jumped from previous indications, but it is definitely the correct Mary Ann as she is living with her daughter Naomi at the Manchester address shown on the certificate..

 1866 – Death of William Archer Turney age 43 in Aylesbury where he moved after his marriage.

Having summarised all this what I am trying to find out is who are the parents of Naomi, Lois and William and did they both die before the 1841 census or is John the father and the Mary Ann at the christenings of Naomi and Lois the mother who died before 1841.

I would be grateful for any suggestions or help to unravel this. William Archer Turney is my great great Grandfather.

Many Thanks

Peter

[CaroleW]

Hi and thanks for that info

IF - Mary Ann was 96 when she died - that makes her birthyear around 1769/70.  She would have been 45/6 when she married in 1815 and just about feasible that she was the mother of Naomi and Lois although pushing it a bit with Lois!

No way with William - she would have been in her early 50's when he was born

It's a pity about that 1861 entry age of 38 so we only have the 1841 and 1851 ages to work with.  They are both credible at 65 and 74 giving a birthyear of circa 1777 and making her 46 when William was born - far more realistic then that she was his mother.  My own Gt Gran had my grandfather when she was 46

This is where I have a problem - John Turney would have been 50 when he married in 1815 and I can't get my head around that being a first time marriage at that age.

Theory time - it's proving it that's the problem!!

John was previously married and had children from that marriage.   William was the illegitimate son of one of John's daughters but was brought up by John & Mary Ann

Mary Ann was previously married and had an Archer dtr who gave birth to William.  He may have been William Archer but given the Turney surname

[thesearcher]

Thanks for your help Carole it looks as though whatever theory is correct, I will need to go through the parish records to try and get some further information as IGI is not complete. It certainly surprised me that William Turney was shown as Mary Ann's husband on her death certificate.

Thank you again.

Peter

[arabrab]

Hi Peter

From St Michael's Baptism register Herts in HALS I have  the following
Neoma(!) daughter of John Turney and Mary Ann publican bp 20 April 1817
Lois daughter of John Turney and Mary Ann publican  bp 14 March 1819
William Archer  son of John TurneR and Mary Ann publican bp 13 Oct 1822
The handwriting is very poor and the r/y sort of trails off. Seems like the vicar couldn't spell either if Naomi is anything to go by.

I think May Ann was born around 1776 and I have no problem with Mary Ann Turney producing William Archer at the age of 46 .A very good friend of mine has a sister born when her mother was 47. I just have a problem going back any further. I have been looking for about twenty years now. William Archer Turney is also my great great grandfather.

Can you let me know who notified the death of Mary Ann in 1866 as I have not got the death cert.?

best wishes Barbara